Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

It is as likely that creation and the saviors gospel and mission were prophesied and known around the time that Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden. And as they spread, they took pieces of that early knowledge with them, corrupting it according to their own corruptions, and making fables of an old truth, like the carrying away of relics.

I know that you believe it is all make believe and unreliable. But to me, there is too much of it that rings true to send it away. Especially the words spoken by Jesus Christ. If his sermons are not his being God, then God must have written those words because they divide Judaism and the world, and turn the whole matter into a winepress. No mere man could do such a thing.

Granted we can set the matter aside and go to our lives. But can we do so without considering the quality of our lives, our choices, what dwells in our hearts, and the looming of the grave in consideration of eternity. What is forever and the power of death in the interim. If God lives, loves us, and is our friend. Then why does he not sit with us and console our sorrow and take our burdens. Is God so fickle, or is the truth ours to say. If we make no plea, then upon whose ears shall our silence fall.

We should rather set aside our willfulness and unmake the war we make for the entrance of peace and the knowing of God. That should he live and come, he might abide in pleasure and lay claim to his own. For to do so is to be his.

 

Hallelujah, a theist finally admitting that you can't prove God exists. Now the $64,000 question: Why do you believe in something that you admit you can't prove exists?

 

You really need to research L. Ron Hubbard.

 

Our Founding Fathers fought a war for a similar unprovable cause which cause to them was self evident. Our liberty and rights in liberty are founded on that concept, that there is one God from whom we all come. And one God from whom we all come is the essence of our equality. So our inheritance in religious liberty isn't a question of whether or not God is real. But what we as individuals choose to do with the fact that he is real. So it is to us as individuals to find our way to God. Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He said that it is straight and narrow to life, and that all else outside him and his gospel was the wide way unto death. He said that few enter to life, and many to death. But it is all a matter of choice. One can put away ones life and follow Jesus Christ thru life to salvation like the Jews who followed Moses thru the parted sea. Or one can keep ones life and follow it to death without promise. It's for this cause that we are counseled to store our treasures in heaven. We are counseled towards eternity and the long game with God, rather than the temporal glut which ends in a dearth without him.

 

That's just wrong.
The Founding Fathers never attempted to define where our rights came from, only that they were unalienable, they were not provided by men or governments and that the purpose of government was to secure those rights since (they knew) God was not going to secure them for us.

 

You still really believe that Adam and Eve existed? That since the time of their creation - according to the Bible genealogy a few thousand years ago - they spread all over the world adopting different shapes, sizes, colours, cultures and languages. That they managed to cross oceans and deserts? To found their own religions? And if you don't accept the Biblical timescale then why accept the rest of the story?
Jesus sermons were Judaism polluted by the Gospel writers.
Gods/religions come from mans need to believe in something. You show that yourself in your postings. You thought you were managing life quite well and yet you were willing to accept an 'experience' which would change your life. Do people accept things they don't need? Atheists do not need to believe in imaginary gods.

 

God isn't imaginary. He is real. You have simply forgotten him at birth, and filled your heart, mind, and soul with the blitz of mortal senses and the things of this world. My knowledge that God lives doesn't come from anything in this world, including from my reasoning or emotions. I know by the visitation of his spirit and nothing else. I am also as cognizant and privvy to everything in this life, more or less, as you. You cannot state with any certainty that you know there is no God. It can only be your belief. But I don't merely believe that God lives. I know he does. And I know it from him alone, and not elsewhere. You discount Gods power, will, and agency to act for himself, at his leisure as it suits him.

 

Either you haven't read or don't understand the DOI.

 

You cannot state with any certainty there is a god. It is only your belief based on an experience which you alone had. Many others are just as adamant that their experiences were real and yet contradict yours. You are right. They are right. Thus we have many different versions of god and religions. Your founders 'visions' are no more relevant to Islam as Mohammeds 'visions' are to you. Yet you both believe each other is right. Is your god - or Allah - the same - a god of confusion? It seems so.

 

You ignore what I say, and replace my words with your own, and then conclude by the words you've inserted, that I don't know of what I have spoken. LOL! And you justify your witchy incantation by the discordance in the world. Yes the world is discordant. But the willful deceit is yours, adding more discord to the mix. Don't you see that were there no true and only God, the world would have nothing to counterfeit? So you reason that the very idea or concept of God is false, and therefore the variety of counterfeits are of a thing that never was. So when I say that I know that God is real and that he lives, you esteem me as just another counterfeit of that which never was. But that is your foregone conclusion, reckoning, or reasoning of things according to mankind's confusion. You take me for a fool, as if I couldn't possibly know or perceive a thing. Or as if I am so dazzled by the night sky that I miss the dawn and the rising of the sun. But who is prisoner to the dark when I bear witness of the light, and you say it cannot be because of the multitude of competing stars. Then you say well the sun is a fact, and God is not. And thereby miss your own transition from captive to captive. Or from darkness to a greater darkness in spite of the suns advent and the testimony of nature itself, as if the sun were just another light in the sky, another lie to deceive us into believing that which never was.

 

Let me first present the definition of allegory and synonyms of the word:

For a guy who claimed he was once a Gospel preacher at his local church that statement of yours is not consistent with Christian teachings. So, either you weren't well taught or you're just being intellectually dishonest by saying "their stories are simply allegorical".

Truth is, the five books that make up the Pentateuch which are the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are considered to be historical books because they record historical events and so they're not stories of being simply allegorical.

We can understand it if it was the case that you weren't well taught and was really not qualified in being a Gospel preacher. But on the other hand, if you knew these books were considered books of historical events and not allegory, why not be honest with us and say something like this, "I know the books/stories of Moses are considered historical books but I just don't believe in them anymore".

Allegory can be found a lot in what the Lord Jesus expressed numerous of times in Scripture. His parables are examples of allegory like His story of the 'Prodigal Son' for one.

How many times do I need to tell you trev, when it comes to anything regarding God/Holy Bible/Lord Jesus no one can prove/disprove anything. That's why all intellectually honest people acknowledge and understand this factual statement by it appears you haven't acknowledged nor understood this factual statement as of yet.

The Book of Genesis was written approx. 3450 years ago, how is anyone going to get any proof trev? Even if we had audio/video technology in those days, there still would be people not even believing what they hear and see through those recordings. And so, for you to continually use that "p" word is really nonsense. One has to come to believe/not believe through their faith, one way or the other.

Believers through their faith and trust in Almighty God believe in the Holy Bible as the Word of God and so they believe what's written in the Scriptures of the Holy Bible.

You and others on the other hand don't believe in God, ok so be it. Your faith is the belief in the no god atheist religion, ok so be it.

Ok thanks trev for your post, I hope my response to you has enlightened you somewhat to the point where you at least become intellectually honest.

 

Don't you see. Without god there would be nothing to counterfeit. Counterfeiting is mans own idea of opposing a god. Good v bad. I prefer the Chinese Yin/Yang. 2 opposite but interconnected forces.
Man proposed a god because he had no understanding of the world around him. When things went wrong and it was not his idea of a good god allowing it, it had to be another being opposing god.
We are now beginning to understand the way things 'work'. God does not become necessary the more we understand of the world around us. Therefore we don't need a counterfeit god. We have much to learn. Science is progressing and there are new paths to explore which will give us answers to many questions.

 

I have read it and I understand it.
The problem is that YOU do not understand it.

I know EXACTLY the part you think claims that we got our rights from your god.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

You need to reread that carefully. It does not claim what you think it claims.

 

Enlightened? You need enlightening yourself.
Allegory is the expression of truths or generalizations about human existence by means of symbolic fictional figures and their actions. It doesn't mean the stories are real.
Not as shred of evidence exists for the characters. In fact history denies the stories.

Don't try to be so condescending. You have no real idea. If you really believed you were right you would answer my questions and points I have made. You don't have a leg to stand on.

The Biblical Exodus from Egypt never happened. Semetic tribes were in and out of Egypt to feed their animals and trade for necessary articles trading sheep for goods. Some Semetics did settle in Egypt but not in any real numbers until the Hyksos. You would have Canaanite items of many types as the Hyksos were from the Levant - Semetics. You would also have many 'Canaanite' names as the languages of the time were all Semetic. In Europe you have Spanish and Italian where language and names are associated as they are Latins. The Hyksos - Semetic tribe - certainly did Exodus in a hurry Egypt when Ahmose I came from the Southern Kingdom with his army and threw them out. There was no other major Exodus.
What you don't understand is the relationship of nations in the area. They were all related in many ways and language. As Egypt ruled the area and Palestine for centuries often their cultures overlapped. It's no surprise that temples in that area often had similar characteristics. Or that the Ark of the Covenant was similar in its application as that of some Egyptain ritual 'furniture'.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...ible/ark-of-the-covenant-in-egyptian-context/

As to Moses writing the Pentateuch. It is written in the Hebrew of the time of the Babylonian Exile. This written Hebrew did not come into use until the 10th century BCE. Long after Moses time. Rather like the English language changes over the centuries. We don't use English language written/spoken 400 years ago.

Even the Jewishvirtuallibrary admits that the Exodus is only known by the Hebrew Bible version.
'In the end, the only account we have of the migration from Egypt is the Hebrew account'.
Throughout their article about 'Hebrews' in Egypt the word 'speculation' comes into use very often.

Perhaps that will enlighten YOU.

 

It is exactly what I said. Do you think they are vague, meaningless, idle, filler words. And after they stated their reasons, they laid it to God. The Father of our nation, George Washington, gave the credit for the Revolutionary war victory to God in his Thanksgiving Day proclamation. Our nation exists for our religious liberty free from the grip of tyrants. It is all about God. Our Founding Fathers were servants of God, predestined, born and raised to that end, which was to secure a place of freedom, where his people can live and worship him in peace. Here is more from the DOI in following:

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,"

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence,"

 

From archaeological digs to space exploration and everything scientific in between, science is great. But it isn't everything. It doesn't create us, love us, or enlarge our souls. We are neither creatures nor machines. So to whomever science is everything, is blind to the truth. I will always love God for his charity and that he first loved me. And no whiz bang scientific advancement can eclipse that. I have come to know after my conversion that Jesus Christs Apostles went to their deaths rather than to deny their love for him and the gospel of repentance which he taught for the cause of our eternal welfare and salvation. God isn't make believe. They spoke the truth. He lives. I know this, and not by emotion, wishes, or the compilation of understanding or reason, or of scripture or by any others testimony. I say it alone, by myself, supported by nothing but God who has given me to know and to say it. I am like a voice in the wilderness, in this regard. It should be on the hourly news, but it isn't. The world is blind to the existence and work of God. Perhaps that is best, that he goes about his business in a cloud of suspicion, separating the goats from the sheep, calling his own from the nations. So be it.

 

I suggest you tell the Bible Historians. Most of the deaths are simply 'by tradition'. As is Jesus resurrection.

 

The phrase used in the DOI is "THEIR Creator"...not "THE Creator" or "OUR Creator"
The writers of the DOI realized that not everyone agreed on who (or what) the "Creator" was, so they worded it that way to show that they were NOT referring to a specific version of "Creator" but whatever each individual believed what that "Creator" was. It wasn't an attempt to say what, specifically, was the source of our rights but to lay out what was NOT the source of our rights. They are not given by man, or government or any other earthly thing. Our rights are given to us by God, the Universe, our Humanity....whatever.

Not once in the DOI is a Christian term for God used. Every reference to the "Creator" are Deistic terms.

 

We can definitely agree there.

 

If a record of their recanting were discovered would you believe that?

 

Why do you keep making appeals to authority? Who cares what the bigoted racist founders of 247 years ago thought about an imaginary deity who they thought was the Supreme Judge of the world? It's our world now and most intelligent people don't want to be saddled with stupid ethnocentric ancient Middle Eastern religious beliefs.

 

Then give up those rights and leave to the world, because every moment you remain is hypocrisy. I just state facts about America. It is you who is out of place. Go now traitor.

 

You're trying mightily to not see what's there. When they appealed to the supreme judge of the world and relied on divine providence, do you think they were referring to the great monkey king of Atheism? If all they cared about was separating from England they would have stated Englands trespasses and said good bye. They didn't have to mention God or the creator or divine providence or the supreme judge of mankind. The problem is that you are unaware of our nations founding principles and purpose. The generations have gone away from the truth. But the truth remains as the foundation and cornerstone of our nation. Open your eyes.

 

You are simply clouding the issue. Let's take Matthew.

How did the Apostle Matthew died?

We simply do not know for sure. The facts about his death have not been historically proven, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Of Matthew's subsequent career we have only inaccurate or legendary data. St. Irenæus tells us that Matthew preached the Gospel among the Hebrews, St. Clement of Alexandria claiming that he did this for fifteen years, and Eusebius maintains that, before going into other countries, he gave them his Gospel in the mother tongue. Ancient writers are not as one as to the countries evangelized by Matthew, but almost all mention Ethiopia to the south of the Caspian Sea (not Ethiopia in Africa), and some Persia and the kingdom of the Parthians, Macedonia, and Syria.

According to Heracleon, who is quoted by Clement of Alexandria, Matthew did not die a martyr, but this opinion conflicts with all other ancient testimony. Let us add, however, that the account of his martyrdom in the apocryphal Greek writings entitled "Martyrium S. Matthæi in Ponto" and published by Bonnet, "Acta apostolorum apocrypha" (Leipzig, 189, is absolutely devoid of historic value. Lipsius holds that this "Martyrium S. Matthæi", which contains traces of Gnosticism, must have been published in the third century.

There is a disagreement as to the place of St. Matthew's martyrdom and the kind of torture inflicted on him, therefore it is not known whether he was burned, stoned, or beheaded. The Roman Martyrology simply says: "S. Matthæi, qui in Æthiopia prædicans martyrium passus est".

That's just Matthew.

St Paul. The exact details of St. Paul's death are unknown, but tradition holds that he was beheaded in Rome and thus died as.

James the Brother of Jesus. 'This popularity is evident in the Jews’ anger when priestly authorities had James put to death, reputedly either by stoning (after Flavius Josephus, historian of the Jews) or by being thrown from a Temple tower (after the early Christian writer St. Hegesippus).' Brittanica.

Most of the other disciples/apostles have various fates accorded them by different early writers.

The simple fact is that no-one knows HOW most of them lived and died. As with many of the Biblical books it is by tradition.

 

Lots of other biblical characters besides Adam & Even lived in the Garden of Eden.