Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Mitt Ryan, Oct 27, 2021.

  1. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,542
    Likes Received:
    6,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    LOL, Cheap counterfeit. Try again.
     
    Mitt Ryan likes this.
  2. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,581
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So all I posted is reasonable, sensible, practical.................................????????????????????
     
  3. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    587
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Here is the 2nd part of my response to your comment.

    It's really about what you didn't do, more so than what you did do that is worthy of infinite punishment. What you didn't do was to show your love for God, believing in Him, wanting to spend eternity with Him, confessing and repenting your sins, asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord Savior.

    Because God is eternal, His rewards and punishments are infinite. There are no in-betweens. That is the nature of God. We must remember that God sees things in an eternal perspective.

    Scripture tells us His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are nothing like our thoughts, His ways are far beyond anything we could imagine and so just as the heavens are higher than the earth, His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts higher than our thoughts.

    We Read in Scripture:

    8 “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord.
    “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
    9 For just as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so my ways are higher than your ways
    and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9 NLT

    With all said, now the present time is a good time for the non-believers to re-think what they are putting their faith in.

    Ok thanks Nwolfe for your post.
     
  4. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,581
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joshua 7;24-25. A whole family with cattle, sheep, asses, oxen all killed because the father sinned.
    That is the nature of the God you worship?
     
  5. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,542
    Likes Received:
    6,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It can be said that the God of the life you worship will kill every living thing on earth, just as it has in perpetuity since the beginning of mankind. So what is one family and their livestock to every living thing on the face of the earth, generation after generation after generation? Why do you give carte blanche to evil to kill in mass, and then levy fault against the actual creator of life to take at his discretion that which is his.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
    Mitt Ryan likes this.
  6. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,542
    Likes Received:
    6,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Question for Mitt. My understanding of the Bible is meager. But if I take the creation literally, and if Adam and Eve became mortal because they ate the wrong food. Then why did every other living thing become mortal as well, when only Adam and Eve partook of it? Does your religion address this? BTW, it isn't crucial to me. I am only wondering.
     
  7. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,581
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is no god of the life I live. Everything has a beginning and an end. I came into the world and will depart from the world as everything does.
    I do not give carte blanche to mass killing. I was simply pointing out to Mitt the immorality of killing a family for the fathers misdeeds. Each must take responsibility for his own misdeeds. Would you imprison a family because the father stole? If your father had murdered someone while you were a child, would it have been right to execute you? If you believe everything written in the Bible then it is the most savage book ever written.
     
  8. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,542
    Likes Received:
    6,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    First off, I don't question Gods judgment. Second, what Jews did 3-6 thousand years ago is irrelevant to me. My obligation is this day to God. But you are entitled to your own opinion and belief. Or I should say that I respect your right to choose and decide for yourself in all matters.
     
    Mitt Ryan likes this.
  9. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    587
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Very good questions Brother Injeun. Let me try my best to answer them as coherently as I can.

    First of all, the story of Adam and Eve is to be taken literally. Adam and Eve were real people, they were the first two human beings God created in this world. You could say they were our first parents.

    And as we read Scripture in the Book of Genesis, we learn that Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

    God had warned Adam (before Eve was created) that he could freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and if he ate its fruit, he is sure to die.

    And so that's how sin entered the world through one man (Adam) after He rebelled against God by disobeying Him in eating the forbidden fruit.

    We Read in Scripture:

    Death in Adam, Life in Christ


    12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

    15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

    18 Therefore, as one trespass[f] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[g] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:12-21 NLT

    Footnotes
    a. Romans 5:1 Some manuscripts let us
    b. Romans 5:2 Some manuscripts omit by faith
    c. Romans 5:2 Or let us; also verse 3
    d. Romans 5:2 Or boast; also verses 3, 11
    e. Romans 5:12 The Greek word anthropoi refers here to both men and women; also twice in verse 18
    f. Romans 5:18 Or the trespass of one
    g. Romans 5:18 Or the act of righteousness of one

    Well, we all became mortal because we all inherited the sin nature that was passed down from Adam initially. All of Adam's children inherited the sin nature, and that sin nature was passed down to succeeding generations to this very day.

    This is not from Scripture but just my own opinion/thoughts so bear with me.

    This sin nature that all human beings have is like a virus.

    Once Adam ate the forbidden fruit, it was like a virus got into his system and when he had children this virus would spread or be inherited into his children and their children and so forth down all the generations to come.

    Think about it? It is so true that we all have this sin nature in us this virus so to speak that is inherent in all human beings.

    We have all rebelled against God by disobeying Him by committing sins. And so, thank God that He sent us a Savior in Jesus Christ so that we may be cleansed from our sins.

    From Adam we all will receive an earthly death but from the Lord Savior Jesus Christ we believers will receive eternal life in Paradise in God's Kingdom of Heaven.

    Verses 19 through 21 From Romans 5 tells us:

    For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Ok thanks Brother Injeun for your post.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
    Injeun likes this.
  10. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,542
    Likes Received:
    6,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I get how all men are mortal because of our first Parents. What I don't get is how that transferred to every living thing that did not transgress a law. Like all the flora and fauna in nature, and fish and birds, bugs, etc. It isn't huge deal to me. Knowing or not knowing doesn't complicate my trust in our Savior. I was just wondering.
     
  11. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    587
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh, sorry my mistake Brother Injeun, I didn't read your question close enough, I thought you were only asking about other human beings.

    Well because of Adam's sin, God placed a curse upon everything in the world, people, the plants, the animals and even the ground.

    We Read in Scripture:

    14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent,
    “Because you have done this, you are cursed
    more than all animals, domestic and wild.
    You will crawl on your belly,
    groveling in the dust as long as you live.
    15 And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring and her offspring.
    He will strike[a] your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”
    16 Then he said to the woman,
    “I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,
    and in pain you will give birth.
    And you will desire to control your husband,
    but he will rule over you.
    17 And to the man he said,
    “Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree
    whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,
    the ground is cursed because of you.
    All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.
    18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you,
    though you will eat of its grains.
    19 By the sweat of your brow
    will you have food to eat
    until you return to the ground
    from which you were made.
    For you were made from dust,
    and to dust you will return.” Genesis 3:14-19 NLT

    Footnotes
    a. 3:15 Or bruise; also in 3:15b.
    b. 3:16 Or And though you will have desire for your husband, / he will rule over you.

    Ok thanks Brother Injeun for your post, sorry for the error.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
    Injeun likes this.
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    65,375
    Likes Received:
    13,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Good to apologize for one's errors Brother Mitt .. especially one who has so much to apologize for !?

    The Serpent Mitt .. who is this Serpent in the garden .. tell me about this Primordial Dragon .. what is the lineage of this dragon .. and is it a "He" .. or a "She" Dragon .. as this will matter to the understanding of this story .. of deception and betrayal .. and who is this other divinity .. "the Lord God" ? Which God is this ?


    Surely you know the name of the Serpent - Everyone reading the story at the time of writing knew that much .. even those who were not Israelite knows the name of the primordial dragon .. but who is the second divinity .. one addressed as "Lord God"

    feel free to chime in as well . already know your answer to the latter but, very curious about your answer to the former... What Smithy might have had to say .. curious indeed.
     
  13. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,581
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I've often wondered that. We have God talking to himself. 'Let us'.. implies talking to other creators. Then he makes man AND women in his own image. It can't be a human image as humans are prone to failure. If it is a spiritual image then we have male an female gods. Man obviously did not have dominion over everything as he allowed a talking snake to overcome his dominion. Were all animals blessed with speech?
    Then we have god bringing birds from Antarctica for Adam to name them 'penguins'. Animals from Australia to be named Kangaroos and wallabys etc. etc. With the millions of species it must have taken Adam many years and a significant amount of brainpower to come up with names. And the air buzzing with flying animals.
    Then, for some reason, the serpent is more subtil than any beast of the field. Could that be that the ancient Mesopotamians and Semites like the Jews believe that snakes were immortal because they could shed their skins and look young again.
    The Bible creation story is a mix of earlier creation stories written by scribes in the 7th century BCE
     
  14. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    587
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    We have to remember that while animals are not capable of speaking, there are powerful beings out there (God, the angels, satan, the demons) who are capable of the impossible, including enabling animals to speak.

    Most scholars hold that it was Satan in the Garden of Eden who was speaking through the snake, not the snake itself speaking on its own. Thus, the Genesis 3 account it is not suggesting that snakes were of an intellect that would have enabled them to speak coherently.

    Mitt Ryan
     
    Injeun likes this.
  15. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,581
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Most thinking scholars don't believe in Satan. NOTE. THINKING SCHOLARS.
     
  16. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    587
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No, truth is, you screwed up by misinterpreting Scripture...what else is new? Ask yourself how many sons did Abraham have with Sarah? If you answered just one and his name was Isaac, then you would be correct because that is what God revealed to us as written in Scripture.

    Ok thanks Gawd for your post.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    65,375
    Likes Received:
    13,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No Mitt .. the Snake is not "Satan" --- as Satan is on God's team .. on God's side as we learn from Job -- which we have been through already so why are you not internalizing what you have learned .. repeating the same error over and over .. like you were never told to begin with ?

    What does proverbs say about those who refuse correction Mitt ?

    Second .. which God is featured in the story .. and Third .. since you wer dead wrong about the Dragon in the Garden -- (thats a clue by the way) did you wish to go find out and try again or would you like me to educate you Brother Mitt ?
     
  18. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,581
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't think Wyrd is misinterpreting anything. The Bible says that Abraham had many sons. Period. Regardless of how you want to interpret it. You misinterpret many scriptures through your lack of knowledge of the ancient world.
     
    Giftedone likes this.
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    65,375
    Likes Received:
    13,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    OH Boy .. you ask about 10 questions at same time

    "Let US make man in OUR own image" --- the question of who the "US" is referring to is no longer a secret .. or subject of debate by any serious scholar .. although this would be a rather recent event .. the ability for scholarship to make "defacto" claims - Heisler (who I end up disagreeing with on different issues but is the best hope for evangelicals -- even though that still is no hope) states that as of 2010 -- these and a few other issues previously debated are done. This is because of what we have learned .. about religion in the near east over the last number of decades.

    The discovery of the library of text at Ugarit -- and other places gives us a clear picture of the religious beliefs of the groups in the Levant and larger region as a whole.

    A few things that are not debated

    1) The God of Abraham is "EL" --- and it doesn't matter whether Mitt believes it or Not --- this is what the Israelites believed .. along with the Cannanites - Moabites - Elamites - Babylonians - Assyrians - Hittites - Amorites - Jesubites (particularly the Jesubites ) - and let us not forget the Egyptians.

    Ever wonder why there are all these Polemics against Baal and "The Baal's" by the redactors writing after the fall of the Northern Kingdom and then during the Persian Period ? .. but Nary a peep against the God EL ?

    2) The text at Ugarit --- much of which has yet to be translated as is so voluminous .. learning more all the time - Written in ancient in a language so close to ancient Hebrew -- and if you go back far enough they are the same as ancient hebrew comes out of the Canaanite language .. the first culture to use phoenetic script back round 1400 BC if memory serves.

    Much of the stories and motives in the Bible are word for word - straight out of Ugarit / Canaanite religious beliefs. .. which should be absolutely no surprise to any Biblical Scholar as the Bible tells is about the link between the Canaanite High God and the God of Abraham in the story of Melchizedek "Zedek" is the name of the local town God .. this fellow is both Priest and King .. a Priest-King .. common to all the walled city states at the time .. later the Israelites would separate those powers.

    Abraham gives Tithes - and they give praises to the Most High .. offerings of Bread and wine .. the most High is "EL" and if you don't believe me go read "Abraham" in the Encyclopedia Brittanica ..
    https://www.britannica.com/biograph...-narrative-in-the-light-of-recent-scholarship

    So Melchizedek is the Priest-King of Jerusalem -- the meaning of Zedek is essentially Wisdom - Righteousness .. Salem- Peace .. he was the prince of Peace .. Wisdom and Righeousness .. and his priestly order carries on for ever according to Hebrews.

    Well -- it certainly Carried on until Solomon. When David takes Jerusalem .. the name of the king is --- "wait for it" Adonizedek

    Keep in mind that it is not just the king of Jesusalem but every king of every town is naming self after the God of the City-State. Nebochadnezzar - Assurbanipol -

    Enlil-nirari King of Assyria from c. 1327 BC to 1318 BC during the Middle Assyrian Empire. He was the son of Aššur-uballiṭ

    So what does David do with the Priestly order present in Jerusalem ? --- gonna leave this one for you to figure out as I have digressed enough.

    3) The people of the near east all know the same stories .. all believe in the same High God "EL" --- El is the "Most High" .. to everyone at the time of Abraham .. and later .. albeit in a different way .. which is why there is no polemics against EL ... and we can get into the relationship between EL and YHWH .later .. but for now .. the only thing one needs to understand is that Genesis was not just believed by the Israelites .. it was the Belief of Everyone .. The flood story .. making man out of clay in the garden .. near every aspect of the story is echoed in the literary and religious tradition of the day .. for everyone.

    So when the folks during that time heard Genesis read allowed .. they knew exactly the identity of the dragon in the Garden .. the primordial serpent.. Tiamat .. representation of the division between Chaos and Order .. between the Salt water of the Sea and the Fresh water of the land .. and in knowing this .the story made complete sense to the listeners of the day. Yes to some degree was "good vs evil" but not really .. is chaos and order .. about one God dominating the other .. bringing order out of Chaos ..or trying to restore order from chaos rather than a strict fight between good and evil.

    so now for the second question .. who is the God .. in the Garden ? This is a tough one .. on which I have speculation but one thing is for sure .. it is 100% not YHWH.
     
  20. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,542
    Likes Received:
    6,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What's with the name dropping. What is this, cocktail hour? ;-)
     
  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    65,375
    Likes Received:
    13,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sup Injeun .. nice to drop by and play ... but, what it is you have to say ? Did Smith have nothing to say about the Dragon in the garden ?

    Tell me true .. tell me why ... was Jesus Crucified ... was it for this that .. Daddy Died ..... !?
     
  22. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,581
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Giftdone quote.

    2) The text at Ugarit --- much of which has yet to be translated as is so voluminous .. learning more all the time - Written in ancient in a language so close to ancient Hebrew -- and if you go back far enough they are the same as ancient hebrew comes out of the Canaanite language .. the first culture to use phoenetic script back round 1400 BC if memory serves.


    Much of the stories and motives in the Bible are word for word - straight out of Ugarit / Canaanite religious beliefs. .. which should be absolutely no surprise to any Biblical Scholar as the Bible tells is about the link between the Canaanite High God and the God of Abraham in the story of Melchizedek "Zedek" is the name of the local town God .. this fellow is both Priest and King .. a Priest-King .. common to all the walled city states at the time .. later the Israelites would separate those powers.


    Mention Ugarit to most Christians and they have no idea what you are talking about, yet it influences the OT Scriptures. It seems that god must have inspired the Ugarits as well.
    Neither do they realise the influence of other nations like the Egyptians on Hebrew beliefs and articles used in religious/ritual ceremonies.
    Debt forgiveness was known long before the Jewish Year of Jubilee.
    Like most religions Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism and modern sects all stem from a mixture of beliefs.
     
  23. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,542
    Likes Received:
    6,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What are you getting at?
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    65,375
    Likes Received:
    13,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have asked you a number of times now .. What does mormonism have to say about the identity of the Dragon in the Garden .. one who imparted Wisdom to our first couple .. if anything ?
     
  25. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    65,375
    Likes Received:
    13,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In the time of the Israelites all had very similar religious beliefs -- in many cases just changing the name of the Son of El they would trot off to war. So everyone believed in "EL" as the "Most High" "Supreme one" -- all were polytheistic .. which wasn't dropped from the Israelite Religion until Judaism -- round the time of Persia .. and was due to Persian influence.

    This was especially the case during the time of Abraham ~ 1800 BC .. when El was Chief God on Earth .. later El gets usurped as the Chief on Earth by the various sons of God .. of Which El has 70 .. as stated in Deut 32:8 .. land devided up among them .. Jacob being YHWH's portion. Serious Scholars no longer debate the meaning of this Passage .. In Psalm 82 .. with El Seated at the Head of the Divine Council .. YHWH defeats all these other Sons of God .. "Sons of the Supreme one" https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf Don't read the part of the left .. read the direct translation in Green.

    Now .. El remained the High God .. but now was in heaven -- the Sons of God fighting it out over who was the Chief on Earth .. the story of Marduk being one of the main motifs .. is Marduk who defeats Tiamat -- aka The Snake .. in the Baal Cycle it is Ball who defeats Mot .. the promordial Sea Monster .. same story .. different name .. except the Baal cycle narratives exactly the same as the YHWH narratives .. YHWH depicted as this great storm God who defeats MOT -- Leviathan .. many of the stories ripped straight out of the Ugarit literature.

    So the Garden of Eden Story is much deeper than on the Christian Surface .. is a battle between Chaos and Order --- these basic struggles relating to knowledge being passed down to humans -- the nature of good and evil in humans .. the continual fight against the forces of chaos

    but now .. the tough question .. who is the God in the Garden ? ... other than Tiamat and the tree of Life of course .. and/or tree of Wisdom.
    Who did the ancients think this God was ? .. an answer I have yet to find.
     
    trevorw2539 likes this.

Share This Page