So you teach children...and when you say "Everybody stand please" and they ignore you....that's ok. Alright.
I teach high school students. I've had no more than one student in a given year choose not to stand for the pledge. I addressed each incident quietly. The ones that sat to get attention found that such a tactic didn't work and eventually succumbed to the peer pressure of everyone else standing. The ones that sat for other reasons discovered that at least one teacher was willing to listen before judging, and responded with greater respect for me - real respect, rather than just the show.
You and I differ. I don't justify a show of defiance. I think children...even high school students...should learn to show respect for our leaders even if they don't agree with them or like them. I think they should be respectful of people in authority...our police officers, judges etc...even though they may disagree. In court...a high schooler would be in contempt of court and could go to jail for showing a lack of respect to a judge. I think they should show respect to anybody whom they disagree with. So in my opinion...acting like a friend is not good for the child. I think teaching the expectation of respecting people...even your country...is a benefit for them. But to each its own.
Why not stand for the pledge? I don't understand why you would feel as though you shouldn't. Please explain? Thank you.
The kids I have in mind do show respect for their leaders, just not the pledge of allegiance. They speak to me and each other with respect or pay the consequences. The difference must be that I show the respect to them that I demand from them. Interesting that you take that to the "acting like a friend" extreme, which is teacher-code for showing weakness. I'm guessing that you teach younger kids. If so, kudos to you. It's something I wouldn't want to do. I'd definitely have to adjust my approach to one more like yours.
And what I am saying is that respect goes more than one way. If a child has a belief that causes them to not want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, our Founding Fathers were smart enough to create a system that protects and respects their belief. You, however, think that children are little automatons, undeserving of any respect and unable to have any beliefs or thoughts of their own. In Sunday School, your class would be relatively homogenous in their beliefs, and their parents would want them to be homogenized even more. Public school is much different. I teach 4-6 year olds in Sunday School, every third month on a rotating basis. I've substitute taught at all levels of school, I've taught college, I am an advisor for the middle school play stage crew, and I volunteer extensively with the public school system. And that is how I know that children are not animals, or robots, or mere vessels to be filled with what I'm sure you think is your limitless wisdom. Exactly. Classroom management dictates that you pick your battles. A student sitting during the Pledge (which isn't even led by the classroom teacher these days, but is led by a voice on a TV or speaker - shows how long it's been since our friend CKW has been in a school) is not even worthy of a moment's notice. You justify it by bringing attention to it. Acts of defiance are meaningless if no one notices. But the Pledge doesn't contain any words of respect for our leaders. If a child doesn't stand for the Pledge, they could be showing or feeling a bunch of different things. If a teacher or any other leader is stupid or delluded enough to think that they teach their children respect by having them stand and recite what, for the children, is basically a meaningless phrase, they are undeserving of respect. For showing lack of respect? Maybe. For failing to rise, when the baliff says "All rise"? No. Neither is acting like an infallible prison guard. School is a learning experience, children learn little from being forced to perform rote acts. So do I. However, being forced to rise for the Pledge is extremely disrespectful of this country and the ideals which we claim to hold dear.
Because the Pledge goes against the ideals upon which this country was founded. It is an affront to everything our nation is supposed to stand for.
Of course there is. Are you stating that while reciting the pledge kids must stand in order to NOT be disrespectful to the teacher? The kid would be rude if (s)he disrupted the pledge or acted in some disrespectful way. Sitting quietly and letting those who wish to recite the pledge is hardly disrespectful. That makes no sense at all. What or why did the teacher need to "handle" and what situation? What makes not participating in something rude? By forcing them to participate in something they do not believe? And you base that on what, other than a dislike for the kid?
I have a feeling we aren't getting the entire story from the student here.... you have a right not to have to say the pledge... but you don't have the right to be a disruption when others are trying to say it. I have a feeling, this had more to do with a kid who wouldn't shut up during the pledge, then trying to apply "constitutional rights being violated" argument to try and deflect what really happened. We had a kid last year, became a horse's as-s during the pledge and wouldn't shut up. The teacher was forced to retire when she tried to make a big deal out of it. I happen to have that same girl this year in first period. We don't watch the morning announcements (or the pledge) because it opens me up to all sorts of liability. I see nothing wrong with insisting on at least quiet and respect for others during the pledge, but when a teacher got run off over this....it ain't worth it if you want to make a stink about it. kids say a lot of things about why they may not want to say the pledge... but 9/10 times.... it's just they don't want to be bothered with it. the "notice me and my objections" is what causes the problems.
So you would agree that a student who sits quietly in his seat, say with his hands politely folded on his desk, is no disruption during the pledge and is OK?
while I may not like it or agree with it.... I know that I wouldn't have any leg to stand on. Queit and non-disruptive.... quietly stepping outside the room while it's occuring.... those are all acceptable behaviors I am legally required to honor. But, the reality of situations like this are is none understand why it is they are being asked to stand and be quiet, they want the time to talk and this interupts that time. So defience enters the equation and students will then cling to "constitutionally, I don't have to" They don't understand they must still be quiet for other's rights to say it. The next problem is, when a teacher tries to correct the disruptive behavior, the kid starts arguing they don't have to and disrupts the entire process (due to the short length) There's a teachable moment after the pledge, but still doesn't mean they didn't just violate someone else's right to say the pledge undisrupted. This is where the teacher last year got in trouble. She pushed the issue and administration wouldn't back her. The kid in question wasn't trying to exercise her constitutional right to not recite the pledge, she was being disruptive and grasped at this excuse to prevent herself from getting in trouble for defiance associated with being quiet.... and it worked. The precedent was set at my school by future behavior by the students, and how the admin will react to it if you try to push the issue. Teacher last year was forced to retire 3 months early due to the fact that she was in DROP and annually contracted because of DROP... not a big deal for her because she isn't hurt financially by the decision. I am not in that same position in my career. I'm still less than half way through and I'm not willing (at this school) to risk it when the admin makes it clear they won't support the teacher if anyone says "but it's my right" even when that's not really what the battle was over. I'm not
If a teacher in a public classroom setting....in Choir for instance....asked all kids to stand to sing the program song....and all the kids stood except one who continued to sit and quietly read his/her comic book....then that is a respect problem. I mean, really...its obvious. I think that some hate the Pledge so much that they advocate children go past not participating to exhibiting disrespect for the teacher and the pledge.
I commend you for sticking to your principles. That took guts. I remember what I did. I would say the pledge but omit the "under god" part. Though in general I feel like making anybody say the pledge is wrong. You're indoctrinating them to be nationalistic, which is bad in how that, like religion, tends to dehumanize people who are not of this nation. Personally I like my country, but I feel like nationalism is wrong.
I think you're grasping at straws. A program song in a choir class is part of the curriculum. The Pledge is not. Now, if the kid was acting a part in a school play and the part required that he stand and recite the Pledge, you might have something, but that would be because of the class requirement instead of the Pledge itself. BTW, I haven't seen anyone "advocate children go past not participating to exhibiting disrespect for the teacher and the pledge." Please point out where you interpret that happening.
I'm not grasping a straws......I'm pointing out the obvious. My position is that a student does not have to participate in reciting the allegience. But in ANY situation when a teacher says "Lets stand"---in normal society a child willfulling refusing that request---is not acting appropriately.
You keep confusing what the role of the teacher and classroom is along with what the pledge is and what the curriculum is. They are NOT interchangeable. A kid in choir is there to sing and one in a classroom is there to learn. The pledge has NOTHING to do with any of this and as long as the kid in NOT DISRUPTING the kid is NOT disrespectful.
You are grasping at straw, and reciting the pledge is NOT any situation. Any teacher that asks a class to stand on a whim is an idiot who should not be in a classroom. If the request is to recite the pledge then standing IS participating and since that is NOT mandatory the kid is NOT inappropriate.
None of my opinion has changed. At all. Parents call the shots...not bratty minors. A teacher isn't going to cause a lot of chaos because one of her students didn't mouth the words. A kid can easily not participate and we wouldn't have this conversation. But she might tell the parent and that parent would have control over that child and could ground or punish that child if they wished. A child doesn't have "rights" like adults have rights. But perhaps you have missed that the many posts have focused on that you and others see children as having the RIGHT to disrespect the teacher's instruction for the class to stand. That has nothing to do with mouthing the pledge.
But your rhetoric did. ijs None of "the many posts" have focused on that I see children as having the right to disrespect the teacher's instruction, because I haven't expressed anything of the sort. Nor did you. You mentioned explicitly that the non-act of remaining seated quietly (some would say respectfully) during the recitation of an optional pledge is a belligerent act of rebellious disrespect toward the teacher personally. I disagree. You opined that a teacher doesn't have the right to behave disrespectfully. I agree. We only disagree on what that means. I thought we'd both made that clear some time ago. BTW, you never mentioned the age/grade level of your students.
You mean like voting or entering contractual agreements? How is that relevant to this? Having the right has nothing to do with sitting quietly and not participating. That you consider that to be disrespectful is irrelevant, because it remains ONLY your opinion. And yes, children HAVE the right to disrespect the teacher when the teacher is asking them to do something that has nothing to do with the curriculum.
Haha honestly guys. I'm so confused. The pledge is just out of honor. It's not like they're asking you to cut an arm off. All they're asking is that you pay less than 15 seconds of your time to say thanks to the country. It's not some huge duty, or big event. You're making something out of nothing. There's no reason to not say the pledge. I heard someone before say that it goes against the very foundation of America. Jesus Christ man. How in the name of god does that go against America? How? C'mon. It's just a pledge.
Not sure if that qualifies as an oxymoron, but it screams loudly of how much the value of giving our word has deteriorated in America.
