Psaki: Even After Vaccine, You Still Need to Social Distance and Wear Masks

I don’t know much about New Zealand. Australia certainly does when compared with many US states.

Much of Australia and New Zealand’s success is a result of their ability to isolate themselves from international travel.

Authoritarian governments have had success. But not all places that have had success are authoritarian. My state is much less authoritarian than New Jersey and has less than half the deaths per capita. There is more to the equation than just the level of authoritarianism.

 

I think so. Employers will likely require vaccinations, too.

 

How would you explain British Columbia (5.1m people)?

 

557, this is atypical of you: selective quoting. You've berated me in the past for selective quoting in my hope to convince people to trust the vaccines, then I conceded the point and became more inclusive in my posting, showing the bad side too.

Now you say authoritarian governments have had great success in mitigating this pandemic. What do you make of Brazil? Can't be any worse. Actually it's THE WORST pandemic control in the world according to the Australian ranking (based on a number of parameters) out of the 100 countries they included, based on reliable data (they excluded China for this reason; their data are not reliable - I quoted that study in several of my past posts - I don't have the link right now but it is in my posting history). So Brazil placed last... and their government is extremely authoritarian.

Also, on the opposite end of the ranking is #1 New Zealand, and their government is extremely democratic. In-between you get all sorts of democratic countries doing well, and all sorts of authoritarian countries doing poorly, and vice-versa. By the way, we are #95, only better than Mexico, Colombia, Iran (another authoritarian country), and Brazil. We are behind freaking Bolivia; no kidding. So, no, if you only quote authoritarian countries that did well (like China - if they did; like I said, they are not reliable - and Singapore) and democratic countries that did poorly (like the UK) you'll be guilty of selective quoting. Because, see, it's not an issue of authoritarianism. It's an issue of sensible, scientifically-driven, and appropriate responses.

Clearly with the rarest of exceptions (which tended to happen in smallish island states but not only - think Uruguay for example - they share long borders with Brazil and Argentina, two very infected countries, but still did well) most countries couldn't control this thing, given how this virus is so contagious. But the relative degree of partial success vs. disaster has correlated more with what kind of approach these countries used, versus them being authoritarian or not.

Look at Brazil: authoritarian... but with a leader who is much like Trump - he has actually been nicknamed The Tropical Trump - who just like Trump, mocked masks, mocked social distancing, derided science, mocked testing and contact-tracing, promoted packed maskless rallies, and promoted chloroquine; they got disaster, predictably. Switch to non-authoritarian New Zealand, which promoted science, masking, social distancing, border control, quarantining, vigorous testing and contact-tracing, and skipped unproven and useless treatments (much like Uruguay), and they did well. So what exactly do you think is the deciding factor? Authoritarianism? I think not.

Now, about the CDC. You are assuming too much when you say that Biden will try to put pressure on the CDC. The "making" of the CDC's adhesion to science (wording I'm not aware of Biden ever using), is just the fact that Biden nominated for the leadership of the CDC, people who are true scientists, and empowered them to do the right thing. I don't see any pressure from Biden on his team. He got a very competent team made of true scientists, and gave them carte blanche to act. That's how it's done.

I remember a funny cartoon from the Dilbert series, when the pointy-haired boss says, "there are two ways to manage a team. Either you hire the half-wits you can afford and micro-manage them to death, or you hire competent people and let them do their job." I think that the former was Trump's approach (just, the "can afford" was not financial but political), and the latter is Biden's approach. I favor the latter anyday.

 

What are you talking about? Do you live in the US? It sounds like you don't know the first thing about US Law.

 

You live there. You have a much better idea than I do. What’s your opinion?

 

What part of US law specifically are you referring to? Yes, I’m a US citizen who resides in a relatively “free” state.

 

If hospital staff don't show up for work, PEOPLE DIE.

If a school continues to teach remotely, NOBODY DIES!

I see that as a difference.

And yes, for some age groups the school staff would be more at risk from others of their own ranks. But, that doesn't change the equation for those younger groups. And, for students not so young, there is reason to believe that the students present a risk of spreading to other students, to teachers and to those at home.

 

With that logic everything should be done remotely.. I mean if not someone might die....

You might want to look at the impact remote learning is having on education in general and the mental health of our kids on top of that.. But you dont care.... Orange man bad....

 

I don't see any evidence that hospitals have been unwilling to buy domestic product.

I know you found a source. But, the really serious lack of ppe was last spring and summer. Hospitals were BEGGING for help from anywhere.

Today, the federal government seems to believe that there IS a domestic PPE shortage - or they wouldn't be using the defense production act to address US production of PPE including masks.

I don't see any evaluation of the product you found, other than that the price seems to be gigantic compared to what N95 masks cost last January. And, of course there is the quality issue which I can not personally assess.

As for your article, it DOES NOT support your accusation concerning "buy America" and it DOES give reasons that make it hard for small suppliers to get noticed. It also points to a price issue.

Reread your cite!

I DO like that author's point about needing a domestic capacity for creating masks as a national security issue. This is something that Obama tried to create near the end of his term, but Trump killed. We WILL have more pandemics as there is absolutely nothing to stop it and the last couple decades has proven this is a real problem. THIS pandemic got turned into a political weapon for dividing America. As the article indicates, we have to get past that and actually become prepared to do WAY better than we did in 2020.

 

So, if a grocery store clerk doesn't show up for work, people die??? Like I said, many essential workers are showing up for work in a long list of professions. the majority of them not involving death but involving a proficient functioning of society, without all this fuss and all this union objection. Teachers are also essential workers and should do their part.

And then, regarding doctors, I'm one. I'm at retirement age and I'm wealthy enough to comfortably afford to retire anytime (the same applies to my wife, also a doctor). We could have retired at the beginning of this pandemic. We could have said "f... this, we are not exposing ourselves." But no. We chose to continue to be active to avoid short-staffing our hospital and burdening our colleagues, and to do our part. So, yes, I find these teachers who are so panicked and don't want to go to work, a bit rich. Just do your part, dammit!!! Others are doing their part despite higher risks.

Sure, schools have been teaching remotely... at a great burden for pupils and society. Working parents - especially the less ressourceful ones, socioeconomically - have suffered enormously from this as it's hard to afford childcare for all the hours the kids would otherwise be at school, and if you look at the American Academy of Pediatrics' position on this, you'll learn that kids are at severe risk from this remote learning. If you aren't aware of this, schools provide - especially to disadvantaged kids - much more than just learning. They provide school meals, health checks by the school nurse, which in many cases are the kids' only opportunity for some good healthcare and for healthy meals... and ALL kids regardless of being disadvantaged, incur significant risks that are psychological, cognitive, and sociological (lack of socialization, poorer psychological development, poorer learning and cognitive development) from not attending school in person.

Sure, older students (high school, college) are more exposed to the virus and more prone to passing it on... but not more than the whole society at large unless they are really stupid. Maybe school should also educate them on not having stupid behaviors around the pandemic... And again, even the high school and college students have a much smaller mortality and morbidity rate from Covid-19 than all of society except for the even younger students.

There are ways and methods to safely reopen schools. I've posted in the past, extensive recommendations on how to do it so that teachers are minimally exposed to risks - MUCH less than grocery store clerks, let alone doctors.

And have you considered the odds that a school age kid will die of Covid-19 contracted at school? I actually took the time of looking up and calculating the odds of death from attending school, in regards to four conditions/events: Covid-19, meningitis, tuberculosis, and school bus accidents. Newsflash: by far, the much smaller odds are the ones associated with Covid-19. But while the odds of a pupil dying of meningitis or tuberculosis or even school bus accidents are far higher (especially for the first two, and not as much but still higher from the school bus accidents) parents still send kids to school every day, most of them riding school buses, and nobody advocates for nationwide school closings due to the endemic, pervasive, and permanent risk of meningitis and tuberculosis, despite these risks being statistically actually higher for the kids than the risks of Covid-19.

Also, in countries that have reopened schools, there's been studies showing that the few pupils who got Covid-19, in vast majority got it from relatives at home (not the other way around) and from the community. Kids were very rarely the index cases in a household (that is, the first one to get sick and to spread it to others).

All of the above, especialy the part about meningitis, tuberculosis, and school bus accidents, is to show how emotional and political this issue has become, because scientifically speaking it makes no sense.

 

You have to get past that "trump card" mentality. Even McConnell believes "orange man bad" and is willing to proclaim that to the nation and the world! How could ANYBODY have a different opinion of the scuzball we had as president of the United States? And, we're past that, because he was a loser in our last election.

Yes, there are other jobs that are societal requirements. We recognize that for grocery stores, for example. I stuck to education because that was explicitly called out in the post to me.

Plus, I really thought people would see the point.

 

Are you suggesting remote learning is not impacting grades overall and mental health of our kids? I could show you report after report but i have a feeling you would just change the subject.

 

If grocery stores close, then yes, that is a huge problem.

Is THAT what you meant, or were you really trying for some other kind of argument?

 

No. You can read my posts. And, your feelings really don't play into this, especially in crap like what you THINK I might do or say.

My family has a number of educators in it - a brother, a sister, a nephew, a daughter, a son in law.

So, I do have my biases, especially when people talk about ordering them to take serious risks without doing even minimal work toward safety.

And, I also know quite a bit about what this situation means for students. Do you think teachers don't care about their students???

 

That's all you got, after a long, well-reasoned post, with some core scientific facts? The grocery clerk part was one example. Like I said, there are plenty of other essential workers that don't involve death. What part of this statement you didn't understand? Still, it was there, in the very post you so partially quoted.

If I'm trying for some other kind of argument? What about the NUMEROUS ones I ALSO made but you conveniently skipped???

Yes, ALL parts of society, shutting down, create a big problem... including schools! Like I said, they create a huge problem for working parents AND for the students.

So, your argument is death? Well, what about this?

"Significantly higher rates of suicide-related behaviors appear to have corresponded with times when COVID-19 stressors and community responses (e.g., stay-at-home orders and school closures) were heightened, indicating that youth experienced elevated distress during these periods, according to “Suicide Ideation and Attempts in a Pediatric Emergency Department Before and During COVID-19” (Hill RM, et al. Pediatrics. Dec. 16, 2020)."

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2020/12/16/pediatricssuicidestudy121620

Again, that's from the American Academy of Pediatrics, folks who know a thing or two about children.

Now what, big guy? Do you have anything else to counter what I'm saying, rather than selectively quoting a microscopic part of my long post? Because, you know, if you can't debate this consistently, then you won't have my attention.

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PS - at least you recognize that you're biased, with a family of educators. Yes, your bias is showing. And by the way, I'm an educator too, although for older students (I'm a medical school professor and I teach medical students, PA students, nurse practitioner students, residents, and research fellows).

 

I've often stated my great respect for medical staff. Last spring, many actually left retirement and came back to help those with COVID, even though there were serious PPE shortages and they were themselves in high risk groups. And, that left medical staff as being one of the categories of the population with the highest death rate.

We as a nation owe a seirous debt of gratitude - and, we owe a WHOLE LOT MORE RESPECT than so much of America has for everyone in our science based medicine community.

Doctors have been moving toward working remotely, too. Plus, the safegaruds of hospitals cause many who need their doctors to not be able to get that needed attention.

There is little to no work toward requirements and funding for opening schools safetly. Education budgets are the first place states go when in financial problems, as education and transportation are usually the two top state expenditures. In 2018, education spending in America in constant dollars got back to the per student spending of 2009 - when education spending took a major many years plunge due to the Bush crash.

People are merely demanding that they open. You (and I) can project good things that can be done. But, that's NOT the issue. The issue is what IS being required and funded.

I've REPEATEDLY pointed out that the real risk comes from the spread to the student's family memebers and to school staff.

Comparisons to other nations have to include the overall precautions that are actually being taken by the citizens living there. And, that goes beyond what their local regulations may say or not say.

And, you AGAIN try to make this about concern for the health of students who get COVID. Let's remember that students who get COVID are both capable of spreading it and of being asymptomatic, thus probably not evern recognized as having ever had the disease. That is, studies of those students actually diagnosed aren't likely to be sound representations of how schools spread COVID.

I hope your interest in education lasts beyond the end of this pandemic.

 

When there are LONG posts, I don't always respond to every issue in one post. I'd much rather address specific issues.

I'd point out that colleges and universities are taking significant steps in order to reduce the rate of COVID infection.

At the university my niece attends, every student in the university is tested for COVID weekly. Nobdooy can show up from travel or from beginning of term without having a recent negative test. Explicit isolation measures are taken for anyone without a negative test - which happens a few times per month. Much more of eduation is done online. And, class space is far more spread out. Also, living accommodations are far sparser, with her having a private room rather than the previous 3 students per room. The school radio station had 2 key students test positive, and now the radio station is off the air. All students are required to be masked nearly at all times - essentially, whenever outside their room.

Would you support and fund this for high school?

 

Yes, sure, I'd support safety measures for schools, and many of them do not actually involve higher costs for the school... such as grouping students in clusters/pods so that if there is one infected it wouldn't spread to the whole school, staggering class times so that fewer students are in the corridors at a given time, cancelling recess, requiring symptoms checks and temperature checks at the door daily (not fool-proof but it does decrease exposure to some degree by excluding from class kids with active symptoms although many are asymptomatic; but every bit helps), requiring masks at all times (which is more a burden on parents to provide the masks than on schools which can just sent students home or not admit them for the school day if they are maskless, just like they do for dress code violations), opening windows, establishing a "do not cross" line on the floor that would allow teachers to stay more than 6ft from students (would be more efficient for older ages that don't require close assistance but then, younger ages are much less risky anyway), etc. These measures are essentially free to implement.

Others are low-cost to implement, such as providing teachers with N95 masks and face shields and installing plexiglass barriers, fans, and portable air purifies with HEPA filters (the portable units cost under $100 - some very good ones for $59 including some that have UV lights too).

On top of this, the Dems' Covid-19 package is indeed including funding to support reopening schools. Sure, there are also some measures that are more costly... such as HEPA industrial air purifiers, UV lights, extensive testing and retesting programs, etc. - I do favor more funding and the Biden administration apparently is thinking of it.

But again, other segments of society ARE already operating without most of these measures... Everybody needs to do his/her share, which is what a civilized community must do. I frankly think that teachers' unions are exaggerating the risk (which is smaller than the risk of many other professional categories that are operating with no fuss) and being uncooperative with society at large.

In my hospital alone, we had 140 doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists catching Covid-19, and 5 deaths (two doctors, one old, one young; two nurses, one old and one young; and one respiratory therapist, middle-aged). These deaths happened when our PPE was inadequate. Ever since, the situation has improved from the initial onslaught. But we soldiered on even when the equipment was scarce. So, pardon me for being unimpressed with all this panic expressed by teachers' unions.

"I've REPEATEDLY pointed out that the real risk comes from the spread to the student's family members and to school staff."

And in this, you're scientifically wrong, due to the rarity of infection FROM a student TO a household member or school staff. And no, you don't get to just hide behind the fact that studies were done in other countries... this is a PANdemic. As in, everywhere. There are plenty of countries where the situation is not much better than in the United States (and in some, it is worse) and there are also countries that have an even lower rate of use of, for example, masks, than we have here (like Sweden) and have still reopened schools with no catastrophic effects.

I've posted here, in an early discussion with moderator Adfundum, who is a retired teacher, shortly after I joined this site, numerous links to studies showing the extremely rare event of transmission FROM students to household members and teachers... This SEEMS and SOUNDS like something that appears to lay people who aren't necessarily reading real scientific studies, like the REAL risk; it just... isn't.

Please, carefully read this op-ed from the British Journal of Medicine, one of the top five most prestigious medical journals in the world:

https://adc.bmj.com/content/105/7/618

While it is oldish, see in this op-ed and its references, the case of a student who tested positive and interacted with no fewer than 100 others in school and in a ski resort, and managed to infect... no one. Also look at the index case studies referenced in this op-ed. Also see the reference to a study showing no teacher whatsoever getting infected (I'm not saying that it has never happened; just, that it is rare). Also notice that experience shows that countries that reopened schools did NOT see a wave of community infections any different from times when schools were closed. Interesting, huh?

In medical care and by extension in public health, it is important to talk about a balance between risks and benefits. Are there some risks in reopening schools? Sure. You actually will find studies that refute what I just said and show risks more substantial than the ones in the above op-ed and its reference sources (like in every scientific topic, there are always studies showing something, and others showing something different - but comprehensive literature reviews done by the American Academy of Pediatrics came up on the side of considering that the benefits of school reopening outweigh the risks. Like I said, keeping them closed has significant risks too, like shown in the suicide behavior study (something I did not see you refuting, despite my express invitation to consider that part; you were talking about deaths... well, keeping schools closed results in deaths, too).

And you also failed to address a point that I made and this op-ed makes too: that other risks are actually statistically worse than the risk of Covid-19 but schools don't close for those. Shouldn't the unions then refuse to allow teachers in school rooms because they could catch tuberculosis? It's actually a bigger risk, statistically speaking, than Covid-19... no closings for that, huh?

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Now, at least, you did present some coherent arguments so you did keep my interest.

But what's with the little personal attack jab hiddenly implying that I won't keep my interest in education after the pandemic? Why wouldn't I? I've been in academics for forty years, and my interest has never waned.

 

@WillReadmore look at this: hundreds of billions to fund school reopening, guidelines (scroll to the bottom of the page):

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-reopening-guidelines-cdc-color-coded-zones/?ftag=YHF4eb9d17

So, it's not like the Biden administration is not paying attention to this...

I wish we healthcare workers had billions of dollars of funding too when we were facing the early days of this pandemic with inadequate PPE... and we still soldiered on.

 

What I supplied isn't something NEW - it's the guts of the issue. How did you not recognize that???

The point is there is nothing like what you or I suggest in the plans for ORDERING schools to open.

Beyond that, I do NOT agree with your assessment of costs. What you propose DOES cost money. Let's remember that today a significant percent of k-12 teachers are supplying standard school supplies out of their OWN INCOMES - paper, copy costs, pencils, etc.

So, when you proclaim these various COVID measures to be cheap, I will point out that it's cheap to make copies and buy pencils, too. But, large numbers of schools can't do that.

YES. There definitely are problems with our public school buildings today. Many have serious infestations of mold. Many have water quality below drinking standards. Etc. If schools had the budget for defending against health risks, they would have DONE SO. Using that as an EXCUSE for ignoring COVID is just plain disgusting. The point of these problems is that schools are already in such serious financial stress that they can't cover the standard problems and costs that existed pre-COVID. NOW, you want to add to their load?? What makes you think they have the budget for THAT?

Short form:
- schools already dodn't have the money to cover the costs of k-12 education. If more is to be done, you can't expect that to come out of the existing budgets.
- I do not see ORDERS to open schools coming with the plans and funding that would make that safe to do.

 

Those are guidelines, NOT part of any order of condition for opening schools.

The dollars are NOT passed. When was the last time the federal congress passed billions of dollars for education? Today, funding per student has only just gotten back to the level it was in 2009 on a constant dollar basis - and that is inclusive of state funding.

The work is not done, as schools don't even know what's going to happen or what funding might be available.

I've NEVER said I would be opposed to a serious plan to make schools reasonably safe in COVID conditions.

When there IS a plan that has a reasonable chance at funding and execution, I'll most likely back that.

But, that doesn't exist today, where there is growing demand to open in person education WITHOUT the measures you propose - in fact, regardless of any measures.

Yes, healthcare workers "soldiered on" under horrendous life threatening circumstances. It was a blatantly CRIMINAL offense by our government that we sat by while that happened. That should be a lesson, NOT a standard.

 

Now you blame UNIONS for that? Just like right wing America!!

The safety of our schools IS and issue that unions press.

The fact that they get ignored isn't an excuse for blaming them.

And, it isn't an excuse for ignoring other health issues.

 

Let's please agree not to use Sweden as an example of ANYTHING we want to be associated with in terms of defense against pandemic.

 

@WillReadmore
The fundings will pass through reconciliation. It's clear that they will since the Dems don't need the GOP for this. And the Biden administration is planning to push for reopenins AFTER this approval which will come sooner than March 14.

Please detail what costs are involved with separating students in clusters/pods. What costs are involved in opening the windows. What costs are involved in getting the already hired school nurse to station outside, the students lining up to come in, with the nurse performing a temp check and asking the students to answer some questions about coughing, headache/bodyache and positive cases in their families. What costs are associated with cancelling recess. What costs are associated with getting a duct tape and making a do-not-cross line (and the others mentioned so far, zero dollars; this one, I suppose the duct tape stretch would cost a few cents). What costs are associated for the school in sending home students who refuse to mask up. What costs are involved in staggering classes for different times in corridors.

I'll wait for you to put a dollar value in any of the above measures. You can take out the duct tape if you feel a few scents are too costly. You may instead simply draw a line with a black marker.

And then, the Biden administrating is allocating HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to help schools reopen. I think the schools will be able to afford the FREE measures I'm mentioning above.

You want to contest my points? Be specific. Come on, how much does it cost to walk to a window and open it up? How can you say that this is not free??? You are going to the emotional aspect of lack of school supplies... My measures about require no supplies... just free common sense. Even if you don't want to waste a few feet of duct tape or the ink in a marker, the teacher can just keep repeating "I don't want any student to approach my desk and to get any closer than the first row of desks." There you go, you can scratch the few cents that a stretch of duct tape would entail, and the infinitesimally small cost of a line of marker ink. Not even. We can do that entirely for free too.

So, come on, how aren't my suggestions free? I'm getting a bag of popcorn and waiting for your answer.

About Sweden: One, I did not use just Sweden - if you look at the sources I mentioned (in the reference list of the op-ed I linked too), they are Switzerland, Italy, France, and Israel. Two, I implied that EVEN SWEDEN which is no model in efficatious response to the pandemic, had no bumps in transmission after school reopenings. I think you failed to understand my point for quoting Sweden.

Yes, I do think that teachers' unions are being overzealous about this. Have you seen any doctors' or nurses' unions saying that we shouldn't go to our hospitals to take care of people because there is too much risk and we don't have sufficient PPE? Again, I'm totally and entirely unimpressed by all these claims of extraordinary risk for teachers, when the risks for them are no bigger, and in many cases much smaller, than the risks for the general society and for several specific professions, and infinitly smaller than the risks my wife and I face every working day.

As for your other points about poor conditions in schools and risks such as tuberculosis, you do have a point; maybe I was too harsh with this part of my argumentation. Good catch, and I'm willing to take it back. But the point remains that even with those conditions, the risk for teachers will NEVER match the risks for healthcare workers. We are MUCH more exposed to tuberculosis, Covid-19, and a variety of other infectious agents, than school teachers. You can say what you want about it, with your self-confessed bias from coming from a family of educators, but you will simply never get passed this point.

And I'm still waiting for you to explain what you do with the suicide risk for youth associated with school closings... which is much bigger than the extremely small risk of death by Covid-19 for these children.

As for your jab about right wingers... I'm a centrist, as my screen name indicates. But yes, I do harbor some right wing views... and I'm not ashamed of them. On the other hand, I harbor some left wing views, too. And some centrist views. It depends on the topic. On this specific topic of what teacher unions are saying about Covid-19, you can list me among right wingers if you want, and I'll stand behind what I'm saying. I'm never ashamed of my positions, as they are very logical and very much based on science; after all, I've been a man of science for the entire duration of my adult life.

The bottom line is: the risk for teachers is scientifically established as much smaller than the risk for many other professional categories that are soldiering on and doing their part, for the betterment of society and for society's proficient functioning. If you can prove me wrong on this, I'll concede, but frankly, there is no way on Earth that you will be able to provide data that contest this point. If you want to provide data not merely based on what SEEMS right (such as your idea that students will contaminate families in very significant numbers - they simply won't, as scientific data show) and not merely based on your confessed bias for having educators in your family, I'm willing to listen. But sorry, as of now you haven't proven your case. You'll have to prove to me that teachers are at more risk than doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, prison guards, EMS responders, firemen, police officers, grocery store clerks, meatpacking workers, etc. etc. Go. The ball is on your camp. Once you prove to me that they are at a BIGGER risk than ANY other profession that keeps soldiering on, then I'll say, sure, they should stay home.

For now, I frankly believe that the behavior of teachers and teacher unions is simply disgraceful, in refusing to fulfill their share of societal burden when facing this pandemic. I won't respect very much a professional category that refuses to budge, while I've had colleagues and friends dying of Covid-19 from facing the risks heads on.