The victim mentality is valid to the victim. I don't see how this doesn't make sense. If you are robbed of everything in your house and all your money, do you just forgive the transgressor and call it water under the bridge? Does this not seriously cripple your ability to re-establish yourself, especially now that the means of re-establishment are owned by the robbers? This, as well, is the play with words and the reversal game. The transfer of guilt from the abuser to the victim. It is in the direct interests of the cirminal to disregard the past and diminish the effect of his crimes on the victim. As I said, I don't and I don't believe the Aborigine's expect anything back. That's not my argument, though it would be fair and just according to the values the offending nations claim to have toward the similar despots they now fight. My argument is the lack of any concern, empathy, or acknowledgement by some and, truthfully, I wouldn't be surprised if they definitely are still dealing with racism and discrimination today. That they be boxed out from ever resuming a dominant role in their homeland because it would go against the interests of the occupying culture. In the US, even the threat of a Muslim ideological invasion freaks people out. I doubt a ressurgence of Native American's to a position of dominance would be welcomed with open arms. To me, these are the truths that people ignore. In their minds, the victim is his own abuser. That's what happens when you don't take the past into consideration. It conveniently removes the abuser from the picture and makes it look like the victim is the source of all his problems.
I don't think you can let the past go if the past still lives with you or large remnants of it anyway! That's like a counsellor saying to a rape victim, "it's okay, just learn to forgive them, and forget about how many times the perpetrator rapped you in a week in the past, because it's only happening twice a week now"! "You must forget the past! Slippery, my studies suggest (for what it's worth) that aborigines were locked between no mans land for centuries! You weren't allowed to practice your own culture and you certainly weren't allowed to practice the dominant culture in its full array! This has to have long term consequences that need more than equal opportunity! It needs a massive thrust of equitable funding over a generational lifetime to establish good strong forward momentum on a large scale! It has been the brave fight of both aborigines and passionate whites to ensure aboriginal issues are addressed and been the catalyst for current improvements and survival of aborigines since settlement/invasion! There are probably those that use the "woe is me" line, but surely that is not all aborigines??? There are massive amounts of double standards when it comes to aborigines! It's actually a shame and one of the treason the past can't be let go just yet! It is leverage for the greater good!
As a very new copper working in the north of South Australia I remember talking with an older aboriginal man who proudly showed me his certification as an honorary white man. It meant he was allowed to live in town and not the local Reserve, could go to work anywhere he liked and could drink alcohol, all legally. This was in 1971, 4 years after the big referendum but that bloke was so proud of being trusted to do the right thing that he kept his certification. And this was at a time when the state legislation referencing indigenous people allowed police, on a Reserve, to enter any private dwelling at any time, night or day, without permission from the occupants, to inspect the dwelling and the behaviour of the occupants. In my first week at that station I was told by the older coppers that if I tried that, even though it was legal, they'd kick my arse.
To focus on extending resentment of the past, to nurture confrontationalism and divisive alienation, is to be part of the problem, not the solution. Remember that it`s Aborigines who are being hurt by this agenda. Nothing good ever comes from racial hatred. Stirring up racial conflict, might encourage, or "justify" some Aborigines committing violence against white people, but this only works against Aborigines in the long run.
I again reiterate, for what good it will do me, when did I say forget the past ?????? Secondly what you are talking about is psychological damage. I would be interested in what monetary value you could put on that ? While you have humans on this earth you will have discrimination and racism. To believe otherwise would be foolish folly, and for those living in their own feel good delirium. No mans land for centuries ???? Not sure where you get this from. Do you really think that Aborigines lived here in this country in a peaceful and loving utopia. Seriously ??? or did your studies not include this facet of Aboriginal history. I can tell you there is as much discrimination between tribes and families in Aboriginal Australia as there is by white Australia. I don't disagree with you picture of the past, I just don't see what letting it dictate our future is of any psychological benefit. Yes it has played its part, but now it has become a crutch in which our people are relying on. Otherwise we will always be subservient to ol'whitey, as good as his intentions may be. Tv you are right, the culture was destroyed. How ironic now then that the youth coming through rarely want any part of it. It is a rich culture with great stories and hopefully it can be taught to all, not just little aborigines. Evolution takes many forms. It can be physical, but it can also be social, and this includes cultural. I believe the kids of today have more in common than my day, as prejudices are being pushed to the side. Will we never get rid of the racial blight..... short answer is no. TV the issues are and have been addressed. They will continue to be addressed long into the future, not just for aborigines. You used the rape analogy, obviously for effect. My question to you is, If a women was raped, does that mean her great grandchildren should carry the same emotional scars as she ? should an aboriginal child born this very day grow up with the same emotional pain as an aboriginal born eighty years ago ? Is this equitable enough for you ? TV in your opinion what dollar value would you place on the psychological destruction of a race ? This should provide an interesting answer. And if there is no dollar value, what is your solution then ? How do believe that forever pushing our past back down our throats so it devalues our existence and breeds anger and resentment helps our psychological well being ? I am interested what your studies have shown, perhaps you have a magic solution.
I understand what you are saying. However who are we talking about here ? Does the great grandchildren of the person robbed have to suffer the same emotion pain ? This is the crux of the argument. What we are dealing is psychological not monetary. It always astounds me that it always transgresses back to monetary value, a price being put on our emotional well being. Not only is it not fair, it shows the pure ignorance of misunderstanding what this issue is really about. It is so demeaning to put a value on someones psychological well being. Please let us know what value you would put on this ? A $Billion, $Trillion maybe ?? Can you asure us that this will fix the issue, seen as you seem so insightful. Please enlighten us on what you deem our culture to be ? We will never have an equal role while you keep putting us in our place by constantly buying off your self inflicted guilt with the dollar, and reminding us of why we are not able to be like you. You may mean well by your actions, but all you are doing is appeasing your conscience. Like a cheating husband telling his wife the truth. It lifts the guilt off his shoulders, but burdens her with sadness and grief. Good for him, she needed to know. Look I do not disagree with you that there is still racism and discrimination in society. This will never change while there are different races and cultures on Earth. You talk about victim and abuser, your argument works in the first instance, and on this topic perhaps the second and third removed. But how many generations have to pass before you can tell me that we have been cleansed and we can move on and re establish ourselves ?
"Let the past go" were your words! Many people have sued for emotional damage! This is a blatant indication of double standards regarding anything aboriginal! While there are humans on earth there will be muder, rape and robbery! So, what do we do! Turn a blind eye! LMAO.......You make me laugh slippery, it is another example of double standards! I'm lost for your reasoning, especially you being so concerned about your own people! Figure of speech! I was referring to aborigines not being able to practice their own culture due to government restrictions and not being able to fully adopt western culture! What does this matter! This isn't the issue! My understanding is though, aboriginal people lived fairly harmonious lives with each other! Yes, there were consequences issues surrounding entry on land that wasn't approved, unfortunately I don't the full legalities around this! Do you mean disagreement? I'm not sure you're understanding these words! I think people keep a reminder of it so that we don't get contented in accepting that aborigines are the most incarcerated, least housed, least employed, least educated, highest mortality rate etc! Much ground has been made since Australia's recognition of our terrible past with regards to aborigines! This is another double standard! We will never get rid of rape and murder but do we give up? Double standard alert again! Not sure what you were trying to say here as a collective comment, but doesn't really matter! This is quite a strange question! I actually wonder what your motivations are! You aren't that aborigine from North Queensland who's own communities don't like him....lol! If they also were raped, I suppose they'd have no choice! Now, if the child was not given opportunity because his mother was a chronic drug addict and thief as a consequence of circumstances and continued down the line for generation it would be seen as highly unfair! Guess what slippery, this seems to be the situation with your very own people! I'm actually astounded by you superficiality to be honest! Where is it coming from! Double standard alert as per previous comment above! It only breeds anger and resentment when circumstances are perpetuated! Lol Doesn't need a magic solution, it obviously needs a view without double standards the more I read!
That's not what I was suggesting and I didn't have an issue with it. I was responding to what seemed like a dismissal of their past on your part when you said "so you want your ancestral cave back". While the Aborigines have to accept the past, the dismissal of it, or the failure to even acknowledge it by some says that nothing was learned from it and the abuses of the past might return in the future. Perhaps some are being dealt with today. It might not all be "in the past".
I noticed when you cant answer a question you turn on the personal attack . Poor thing you are. You take a small bet of knowledge and profess to be an expert. You have absolutely no understanding of what this issue is about. You are too caught up in bullying your own agenda on others that you have no time to entertain another perspective. In short you speak.... CRAP ! I think this topic needs more intellectual thought than you possess. The questions are just too hard for you, so you offer up pointless rhetoric in an effort to deflect your obvious inability to debate the subject at hand. Something we constantly see from you on this forum.
The problem is not which individuals hurt which individuals. We aren't really talking distinct generations. These are actions created by one society/culture against another. One country against another people. The effects of the crimes do not disappear with the perpetrators. I hear this argument a lot, and it sounds something like "time washes away past sins". Again, convenient for the abuser. It's easy for the abuser to say "let's be friends". I do understand what you are saying, and when I bring this up, it's not to smear the past in peoples faces except when it seems that the bare minimal one can do- acknowledge a wrong of the past- seems to incomprehensible to them. Or, even more so, when they attempt to box all the problems of that people on them- deriding the culture for showing a lack of progress, being inferior, or whatever. It's generally a lack of honesty that goes into that view of the situation.
When I asked you if you wanted your ancestral cave back, it was a a way of saying, "how far back, in history, do you want to to go with the blame game"? Aboriginals in the vast majority, face massive problems. I haven`t been able to think of one single facet of life, that isn`t harder for Aborigines, than for the broader community. Some are doing ok, but nowhere near enough of them are. They don`t need us to hand them the keys to the perfect mindset for self destruction.
Do you want a robust debate in working out societal issues in our own minds or an airy fairy tip toing around issues approach because we're afraid to hurt each others feelings. Senseless trolling is where I draw the line personally. If you don't make sense to me, I will tell you. This is a topic I've developed an interest in over time, but it was one of Stephen Covey's stories that set me on a course for thinking beyond the superficial. Every circumstance I look at from the girl sitting in a back alley in redfern or kingscross shoving a needle in her arm, or the old unshaven guy laying under a tree in his trench coat from a night of smashing the metho from the flask tucked under his arm is a little more indepth than what many of us care to consider. We look at Aborigines in the same light but many of us can't comprehend their circumstances therefore look for the easiest solution. The easiest solution is generally to blame the individual, such as the girl that had probably been raped by her father and uncles and looks for every escape from the world she's living in by pushing a needle up her arm in the back alleys, or the old alcoholic who suffered physical abuse at the hands of his step-dad and rejection from his mother and never trusted anyone again. Need not say where I sense you are coming from, but at least try and respond rather than spit out the dummy because your feelings have been hurt. There are many many more people doing it tougher than copping a harmless gibe on an online forum.
Yes, but you should live with the risk that the state will inprison you for that or that relatives/friends of your victim will come for a payback. What does the attitude you give above have to do with racism? Can you please stay on topic? If you want to prove my statement to be superficial, it should be easy to retort to that, instead of talking diffuse nonsense. There is something like cultural evolution. I can whine about that we are no longer organized in small Slavic and German tribes, sacrificing from time to timo a human being to the Gods and sinking someone in the moor. But this wonderful culture does not exist anymore. As well as the wonderful whitch-burning medieval era. We live here today and when you sink your son in the moor as a sacrifice to the Gods you'll get serious problems with the police.
Yes, but this kind of love with barbaric cultures seems to be something inevitable in the Western culture. When China occupied Tibet in the 50ies, itself was under Mao's terror regime and how the occupation was carried out can be described as genocide. However, there are demands which are reasonable to come to a solution which guarantees justice for the native people in Tibet, but this nonsense of the Dalai Lama taking back over the government is absurd. As I have no idea about Aboriginals and their culture I asked here about it, because I was curious what's all about this issue. The answers gives me the impression it is the typical love of a neurotic Western middle class for barbarism.
You missed the point obviously. It's been a while since our discussion took place. I can't find it 6 pages back! Are you talking from 10 pages back. How was it not staying on topic? Gotta stay off that stuff man!
@upside down cake I dont know if I used the accusation racial hatred as another user did for this statement, but it is obvious that you are either misinformed or biased. In fact the opposite is the case the White or European or whatever you are focused on culture will loose more and more ground because of its overzealousness to focus on the shame of its own past. Let me give you some short examples, you could go on with such examples for months. While there is historical research, shame and accounting on/for/of trans-Atlantic slave trade there is no and there will never be anything similar with trans-Sahara slave trade and there is no change of the attitude until today (Darfur!). You'll only see this in the so called Western Culture. We can go on with it, its the opposite of what you state here, the Western culture os loaded with self-hatred, self-destruction and doubts about its own right to exist. I have never seen it anywhere else in the world. Let us take as an example Emperor Hirohito would have been victorious and would have ended the Anglo Saxon presence in Australia once and for all. Let me assure you, as I appreaciate Anglo Saxon culture, I could have lived gladly with it. What do you think would have happened to the Aboriginals? And what do you think how serious the outcries of the survivors would be taken in modern Japan? - - - Updated - - - Ok, nothing to be taken serious, thanks for your senseless comments.
Hey, taking into account the point of view of the user upside-down cake, we deal with what the Romans did to our ancestors first and with interests since 300 A.D. Then lets talk about what Gustav Adolf left of the German people. Sweden would be unable to handle a reperation for what they did, but we really urgendtly need the money, when it comes to the Prussian wars and WWI and WWII to pay our debts. Anyway, I am sure somehow upside-down cake raises such demands only when a European culture exploited a non European culture. Did you hear ever demands Arab states have to recognize the injustice of kidnapping Europeans and selling them as slaves in the Arab world in the medieval times?
The Noble Savage mindset? Yes in some people's minds that is true. No doubt there are a lot of people who have that view of indigenous people in Australia and frankly they're not worth talking to or listening to. They are living in a fairy tale world. For 40,000 years humans lived on this landmass basically at a subsistence level. That of itself was a pretty good trick, particularly in the deserts and arid lands where there was a nomadic existence and the pursuit of water, food and shelter was a daily occurrence ameliorated only by the occasional chance for ceremony. In the more temperate areas, in particular the coastal regions, indigenous people lived a more sedentary life (“sedentary” only in the sense of not being nomadic) and could get water, food and shelter without walking huge distances over lengthy periods of time. And for 40,000 years that's basically what happened. There is some evidence of interaction between indigenous people and Asian seafarers in the northern, tropical coasts of the landmass but for most of the indigenous population they really didn't interact with Europeans until the 18th Century. When Europeans settled the way of life of the indigenous people in Australia was going to change. I don't like to eulogise a lost way of life, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate it for what it was, the ability to survive in a very hostile environment. But that goes to humanity rather than to indigenous people on this landmass. Humans are found everywhere on the planet except two places that I know of – Antarctica and Kangaroo Island in my own state of South Australia. The land bridge between the mainland and KI disappeared before humans moved into the Australian landmass and the first humans to visit KI were primarily American whalers and sealers in the 18th Century, there is no evidence of indigenous inhabitation. Nor do I seek to condemn those ancient indigenous people who never invented the wheel. One of our more ignorant past MPs in our Commonwealth Parliament some years ago made a fool of himself for making that point to denigrate indigenous people. The fool didn't understand that if they could get by without a wheel then there was no need to invent it. Where the wheel was used there were animals that could be used to pull a wheeled cart. I can tell you it would be very difficult to harness a team of kangaroos to pull a cart. What I do want is to see the bull(*)(*)(*)(*) done away with. Indigenous Australians have the right to the same basic rights and conditions of living that non-indigenous Australians have. And if they can do better then good luck to them. And they should also be entitled to self-determination within the social framework that we have in this country. I don't mean some form of mutually agree apartheid, I mean social self-determination. That means picking and choosing what they want – provided it doesn't breach our secular laws. It means no governmental interference except in circumstances where it would be necessary in a non-indigenous situation. End paternalism. End the dewey-eyed worship of the oldest continuing human societies on Earth. Get real. Deal with reality. Make life better for indigenous people and non-indigenous people in the best way we can.
Other than your post reading like a James Michener novel. Lol. I agree with you, as I find I often do. What I would like to clarify is what basic rights are aborigines no privy to ? I know in the past basic rights were not on the radar, as we were about as thought of as the family dog, but now, what rights do we not have that every other Australian enjoys ? Or are you talking basic social rights ?
Good post. I believe self determination to be one of the major priorities. Gotta go, will get back when time allows. p.s. I like James Michner.
Good question. This is where I begin to tentatively step into the murky areas. I'll start by saying a right isn't a right unless it can be exercised. That goes for everyone, I'm not suggesting there be a division of rights based on ethnicity. And to be able to exercise rights we have to know about them and understand them and use them and defend them. For the purpose of this post I'll use just one example and that's based on paternalism. The NT Intervention. Wrong approach to a complex problem. Top down is not, at least in my opinion, the way to resolve complex social issues. There needs to be collaboration between the powerful and the powerless, mediated by disinterested parties, to deal with those issues. I am not for a moment disregarding or minimising the problems that were targeted by the Intervention policy, I've seen the conditions that some indigenous people - primarily what I call "fringe dwellers" and what the folks in Darwin call "long grassers" - put up with. It's not a question of tidying up the camp or removing the car bodies, it goes deeper than that. Top down interference is the worst way to manage things. The tool used was finance. There are situations elsewhere with non-indigenous Australians who live on welfare and who endure poor conditions. I'm not talking about the sort of comic world we see in "Housos" but something much worse. Paternalism drove the Intervention. If it was tried in Rooty Hill or Broadie or Elizabeth* there would have been riots. *I know these are stereotypes, I know that the so-called "under-privileged areas" contain a lot of decent folks who just want to get by and get on, but there don't see to be the sort of social problems I'm talking about in Rose Bay or Toorak or North Adelaide.
This is true, but should rights be granted over and above due simple ethnic heritage??? Should the same rights be offered to all ethnic groups and not simply those that demand them??? Yes, it is murky to propose that the intervention is the wrong approach when you clearly show that the complexity of the situation is outside your scope and understanding. Considering that the focus above and beyond the welfare situation of the region but more to the least powerful of them all, the children, how do you propose to collaborate with them??? As the main purpose of the intervention was to protect the innocent, what do you suggest should have been done??? As this was more of a side benefit to the intervention I would suggest that you are looking far to superficially. So how do you suggest the situation should be handled??? How do you suggest that the issues of child abuse and child neglect leading to abuse of alcohol and drugs, and other lethal substances??? Sit and talk about it??? Lecture all about how they should live??? If it happened in Rooty Hill or any other populated area in Australia, people would be locked up before it became a problem. If the same situation was occurring on your own back door in such great numbers, you too would be calling for an intervention, maybe not the same kind but to a point where people would be in court seven days a week... If you say you would not, I would say you are talking flat out BS. The point of the intervention now is should it be lifted??? Has the intervention achieved its major goals??? Only problem is that to have full and frank discussion on this issue, you need to understand what the intervention was in place for and what it has achieved. Has the health of the region lifted to expected levels??? Has the welfare of children been addressed??? Has the intervention been successful??? If the intervention is lifted what measures should be implemented to insure the same situation does not return???
My partner has always tried to do the right thing, when she left the "orphanage" at 15 she went back to her country, here she saw what damage had been done and the continued self damage being done, she immediately left to come to Sydney where she sought and obtained a scolarship and obtained her year 10. She again returned to her country to try to help her people the best she could, but racism and prejudice turned her bitter. A few years later she left her husband, he was an alcoholic and returned with her children to Sydney. In Sydney she worked in early childhood education, working with young Aboriginal children trying to give them a good early life and education. Later she obtained a position at an upmarket early childhood education centre in the heart of Sydney, here she worked with a fully white clientele and was constantly looked upon as someone to be warry of, some parents just saying outrightly, "We don't want THAT woman looking after our children". The centre reassured them that she was the best worker they had and most allowed a "black" woman to care for their children. Since that time I have met many of those parents who openly admit that they were wrong, that she was THE BEST THING that happened to their child/children,some offering her permanent positions as a nanny. To this day we get stopped daily in the streets be people wanting to talk to her, to thank her for all she did for them. All good, but daily we get stopped by police, followed by store security, not served in shops, names called and rude remarks made. Most Aboriginal people want self determination, but more so they want recognition and equality. The one thing I have learnt from being with an Aboriginal woman, is how disgusted I am in our "white" history.
You probably don't have their perspective, that's why it's hard to imagine. I don't know anything about what Native American life is like in some places, or what the Palestinians living in and around Israel go through, or what the minorities of countless other countries go through. I have general concepts, but that is probably the poorest method of correlation ever. It would be like me saying I know you, your lifestyle, and you way of thinking from reading a bunch of your qoutes. (which I did and I'll have to apologize for) But, in terms of beleiving in giving people things, neither do I. Nothing is gained when it is handed to you and I feel that things like reparations are damaging to a people's self-confidence, even if they managed the impossible and got a concession towards it from the government or whomever.( I think the only people who successfully taken on meaningful reparations are Jewish) I completely agree that they have to find their own way out, but I just make the case that they've been forced to tread uphill. And if it is anything like the US, social perceptions and informal pressures might still be working against them, so it might not be as easy as if they were equal and had the same access to everything as everyone else.
