Replacing the M16/M4

OK, now you add in qualifiers. Because that is not what you said in the first place. You originally stated "You could replace all the rifles in the Army for the price of ONE F-22". That would be over 1.1 million rifles.

And I am sorry, there are much more then 136,000 "Combat Arms" soldiers in the US Army. With that number, you might (might) be able to provide one for each Infantryman. There are a lot more "combat arms" then 11X groundpounders. There is armour, artillery, air defense artillery, forward controllers, etc. Plus all the others that move with the "Combat Arms", from the 88M truck drivers to fuelers and the logistics people who run the convoys.

And interesting, since you compare the "next generation" as the Bushmaster ACR. You are aware what that is, are you not?

It is an M-16 with a facelift.

Yep, that's right. It uses the trigger assembly, bolt, barrel, magazine well and magazines of an M-16. Basically it is an M-16 with a fancy shroud over it.

So congratulations. In order to save money, you replace hundreds of thousands of functional M-16's with newer looking M-16's.

 

Okay, how many terrorists did you send to Allah with your M16A4?

It would knock you on your ass quite hard.

The REC7 provides a drastic improvement over the rifles currently in service. We could replace the M16 or M4 of every soldier on active duty in the Army for the cost of four F-35 Lightning IIs.

Nope, sorry. The army has 561,984 active personnel. Assuming that we replace only the upper receivers, civvies can get those for $1,600 per unit, but the army could negotiate a bulk discount down to $1,000. That's $562 million. Each raptor costs $150 million.

I'd like to introduce you to my good friend, the M14 EBR:

It would be more accurate to say that the 7.62x54mmR won the war in Europe, while Little Boy and Fat Man won the war in Asia.

I'd like to see the TDI/KRISS Super-V/Vector rechambered for 9mm Parabellum. A 13-round magazine just isn't enough for a submachine gun.

It would come out to a half-billion, and given the frequency of jamming issues in high-dust environments like the Middle East, and the fact that these issues can mean the difference between life and death, yes, there is a very good reason to spend the money.

On the contrary; there's a very legitimate reason to bring up the AF. Specifically, Congress has approved the construction of 187 Raptors with a $150 million price tag each for a $28 billion total, even though the (*)(*)(*)(*) things never see combat, but is hesitant to spend $0.5 billion on something that could save the lives of soldiers in the field.

Agreed. There is no excuse for using a small-caliber round in a medium machine gun. The M240 is still the way to go.

If we had switched to the XM8, you'd be absolutely right. This is the advantage of replacing the M16/M4 with another AR-pattern rifle like the REC7.

Maybe if you take R&D costs into account... however, they roll off the assembly line with a $150 million price tag each.

That's the number of troops we have in Iraq and Afghanistan, not the whole Army.

 

Don't ask Marines or Soldiers how many people they've killed. It's childish and not something that people want to bring up. That's the type of question that a 12 year old asks.

A M240 is too heavy to utilize at the squad and fireteam level. In Iraq and Afghanistan they're even finding that a SAW is too heavy and in some cases replacing them with IARs. The 10 or so pound difference between the 240 and the 249 becomes a hell of a lot more when you have to lug around 7.62X51mm.

 

(*)(*)(*)(*) yeah! grandpa's still works like new.

 

the M-16 started as the AR-15...in 1957, i believe. '57 was a good year for cutting edge tech.



yeah, it's that old.

 

The M4 weighs 8 pounds, has a 16-inch barrel, and fires 5.56mm ammo from 30-round magazines

The IAR weighs 8 pounds, has a 16-inch barrel, and fires 5.56mm ammo from 30-round magazines

...

lolwat?

 

What's your point? I was refering to your comment about replacing the SAW with M240s. The M4 had nothing to do with that.

lolwat?

 

I'm just asking, what's the point of having a special-purpose gun for each squad if it's going to be that similar to the standard-issue rifle? If a SAW is too heavy, why aren't they replacing it with something like an AA-12 or M14 EBR or Milkor MGL or H&K MP5 or something else that in some way fills a role not already filled by the M4?

 

72. One for each virgin.

Anyway, I love the M4. It was really adaptable and reliable. You just have to treat them right. Wish I could have had one in Iraq.

 

The IAR is an automatic rifle, the M4 is not.

 

What do you do, long distance shooting with pistols?

If you're shooting at something that is more than ten feet away with a pistol, you shouldn't be using a pistol.



Back to the thread,

The 5.56 is weaksause, we need a better round.

 

AA-12=Shotgun? You cannot replace a squad light machine gun with a shotgun.

You cannot replace a light machine gun with a grenade launcher.

You cannot replace a light machine gun with a 9mm Submachine Gun.

The Army/Navy are starting to use the EBR. However, it's a 7.62 round. That creates a supply issue and adds weight.


The IAR has a heavier barrel and it more suited to automatic fire. M4s are almost never fired on full automatic...in fact most of the military's M4s don't even have automatic fire capabiltiy. The IAR is also much easier to fix, because it's so similar to the M-4/16, and takes the same magazines and same rounds.

 

We were trained to hit man sized targets at 25 yards....it wasn't hard. Obviously an M-4 is better though.

 

My entire BN got them on my last deployment.....instead of just the POG SNCOs and OFFICERS who didn't want to lug the "heavy" A4 between their AC cans and the chowhall. It was nice.

 

The hard life of fobbits.

What's your mos?

 

I was originally trained as an 0352....Iraq had a serious shortage of armored vehicles by the time I showed up though.

 

Translation for those not familiar, that is a Marine Infantry Anti-Tank Missileman. The TOW and Javelin systems.

 

I always saw POGS and Army chicks with M4s on the FOB in Iraq. Don't even get me started...

 

I remember seeing Army laundry chicks in country rocking M4s with 203s inside the COP. It completely blew my mind that the higher ups could be so stupid.

 

I can't believe I just got that term...fobbits. I've only heard it on the internet.

lol

 

In the infinite wisdom of the higher ups...they have college degrees, after all.

 

Did you just integrate with an organic infantry platoon? Like patrolling with 0311s?

 

They're usually fat, rock PT gear 24/7, have an A/Ced CAN stocked with junk food and video games, and go out of their way to try and (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) you out for having dirty cammies or no haircut (if they're not afraid of you that is).

 

I don't get why they're trying to replace the SAW with that thing. The SAW is a beast. It needs to stay with the 0311 fire-team. A thirty round mag of 5.56 ain't gonna cut the mustard when you need heavy supressive fire. But I'm probably biased.

 

They should be privatized. Save us a bunch of money.