ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH should lose tax exempt status for PRO-ILLEGAL lobbying efforts?

That's all well and good except we're not talking about an "unlimited power to tax." We are talking about "paying their fair share" as I argued above -- meaning they should be subject to the same taxes the rest of us are.

 

In a word, "yes." Freedom is not free.

 

Do Christians NOT pay taxes in this country? (Well, why isn't EVERYONE a Christian then?)

More super victim? Christians are not paying their fair share and you economically down trodden atheists are having to pick up the slack?

 

Well you obviously didn't see it the last time. Or you completely ignored it to intentionally misstate my position. Which is it, Neuti?

 

Obviously I did, and have rebutted it twoce now.

Maybe you should follow your own advice and actually read what people are writing?

You could begin by stating what you meant by 'extent' as if a Christian organization is engaged in rediculously different activities then any other non-profit/charitable organization?

Again, YOU are the one saying it should be removed, and now apparently back tracking. Which is it?

Now, do you understand how people can grow frustrated with atheists who, quite literally, change their opinion in mid stride and just scream at people for not accepting the flip-flop?

So, either churches SHOULD be granted tax free status, IAW secular rules and regulations that are blind to belief.

or

Churches should be subjected to additional scrutiny and rules - simply because they are religious.

Take your pick and actually defend one, because your position cannot be both.

 

I have already acknowledged that churches and religious organizations do good works of charity. What you have not acknowledged is that they also spend BILLIONS of tax-free dollars on buildings, real estate, multimillion-dollar A/V systems and other luxuries that have nothing to do with said works. Just so my position is clear: To the extent that monies collected by religious organizations go to charity, they are entitled to a tax exemption on those monies and those monies alone. Anything beyond that they should pay for on their own and not rely on the taxpayer for a subsidy.

If you have trouble understanding that premise, maybe some pictures will help:

Tax-exempt OK






Tax-exempt NOT OK





Hope this clears it up for you...

 

Dude, seriously... this is getting tiresome. When you respond to my posts, would you please ACTUALLY RESPOND TO WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE.

Go ahead, you cite the post where I wrote "Christians don't pay taxes." I dare you. I defy you to find that post. You can't because it DOES NOT EXIST. Now what does the Bible say about bearing false witness? Careful now -- Jesus is watching you.

 

Agh, so a LARGE charitable organization is what the problem is?

15,000 people come together once a week in a meeting hall, and that invalidates what they do on the other seix days? While a secular non-profit is home sleeping?

You think the standard for denying tax free status is what we do on Sunday?

Are non-profit groups allowed to advertise to raise funds?

Once again, you advance standards that explicitey target the church without thinking them through, but love the petulant attitude that comes with it - "Geez, don't you get it!?!"

One of us clearly does not.

Perhaps you shoudl test your hypothesis through actual comparison, try to find its weakness before just tossing it out there?

 

You have no one to blame but yourself, kiddo.

You say rediculous things about us, and advance standards that make no sense. And when we point out the glaring double standard, you act the consummate victim.

So, lets get this straight pay taxes, and with their remaining money can support any non-profit group they want - NONE of which pay taxes.

However, when thoe people CHOOSE to support a church rather than some random atheist organization, now they are not paying their fair share - but all the other non-profits are?

Again, your opinion is clearly nothing but attacking the church and its adherents.

You will abandon secularism, the blindness toward belief as a basis of judgement, in favor of sectarianism at the drop of hat - so long as it favors your camp.

And now, as simply as I can state this, you fail your test.

All anyone has to do is disagree with you, demonstrate that your opinions have no merit, and its OK to fail your test.

BTW - I really do not appreciate your attempting to bully with my faith. There is no false witness, just a kid lacking in accountability and thinking that debate forum is about blind acceptance of his opinion. It has nothing to do with my faith other than the reality that you reject it.

Are lying and excuses acceptable in atheism? Who knows, because its whatever you say it, apparently just like you think MY faith is!

 

No, no. Again you completely miss the point. And I'm beginning to think it is intentional. Nobody with your command of the language could be that dim-witted.

Said meeting DOES NOT CONSTITUTE CHARITY. Get it? That constitutes 15,000 people getting together in a meeting hall, voluntarily -- something they are free to do but they DO NOT have a right to have said meeting hall subsidized by ME and my fellow taxpayers. They want a meeting hall? They need to pay the taxes on it.

IOW:

"St. Mark's Hospital" = CHARITY.
"Saddleback Church" =/= CHARITY.

A secular non-profit which should also be held to the exact same standards.

I'm not even going to dignify this ridiculous question with an answer.

Sure. Providing the expenditures are allowable under the IRS.

Neutie, I've thought my position through quite carefully. It is you who may do well to do a little more study. My position is simple, and quite clear: any charitable organization may claim tax-exemption on funds it collects and assets it acquires TO THE EXTENT that said funds are used for actual bona fide works of charity. You are trying to conflate worship with charity. Worship is not charity -- it is a voluntary activity and should not be subsidized. You may need a $20,000,000 15,000 seat auditorium and a $3,000,000 A/V system to worship, but you DO NOT need those assets to perform charity.

Contrast that to my example of the religious hospital -- to the extent that it provides free medical care and other forms of charity, it is fully-justified in claiming tax-exemptions as long as it complies with the law. Here is an example where you DO need a $20,000,000 building TO PERFORM CHARITY. And here is where you will find my full support.

So, again, for those of you keeping score at home:

$20 million hospital that provides free medical care: CHARITY.
$20 million arena where people voluntarily go to worship the gods of their choice: NOT CHARITY.

I can't make it any simpler.

 

NO! I'm sorry Neutie, you're not getting away with your little games this time. You misquoted me -- intentionally. Of course if you can find the "quote" where I allegedly claim "Christians do not pay taxes" then I will be the one who owes you an apology. But since you can't -- since said quote does not exist -- You can either own up to it and live with the satisfaction that you did the right thing, or you can ignore it and know that you have been intentionally dishonest. Which do you think Jesus would prefer you do?

 

OK, judge.

Do Christians pay taxes or not? Yes we do.

All non-rpofits are supported by donations or the selling of services that are reinvested WITHOUT profit.

Why are religious organization subjected to a standard of not paying their far share of taxes?

You made the claim, it was a stupid claim, and you were NOT misquoted. Christians pay taxes, Churches do not. NON-PROFITS do not pay taxes.

You are simply wrong, and acting like a spoilt child. You attack our faith with false hood while demanding apologies? What is wrong with you?

Oh wait, I know.



Anything to avoid accountability will do.

You failed your test stud.

 

#1 - you failed your test again.

#2 - getting emotional when confronted does not strengthe you case.

#3 - the arena is a meeting hall, what else in in the church? What do the people do the remaining 160 hours of the week and where do they do it?

Its not my fault you, EXACTLY AS CHARGED, ignore everything else that happens in a church or THROUGH a Church.

Admnistrative functions, advertising, classes, etc. are all within the framework of a non-profit and a charity.

So tell us all what this charity does differently from a church?

http://www.womenforwomen.org/

Let hope they do not rent hotel meeting spaces for conventions and advocacy or they will be banned by your standard. because meeting halls are bad.

And so what if that set up allows THOUSANDS to participate VOLUNTARILY?

As long as you can attack the church.

No matter what 'standard' you come up with, if you invalidate churches you invalidate huge chunks of the charitable community. But you try anyway, and always and ONLY to eliminate churches.

But of course, when people notice this, your are victim?

 

And it has nothing to do with this thread. Safe housing poor people in need of charity has nothing to do with separation fo church and state.

Seriously, something is fishy about redcarpet.

Sounds like a bad catholic at best. Cooperation with the authorities is not mandatory, and refusing to is not a crime. Only rats talk to pigs.

Really what did Jesus say about helping the poor?
Who knew Jesus Christ was a left winger!?! (only those of us who pay attention at mass know that).
All this time the Franciscans have been nothing more than leftwing ideologues, for almost 1000years, Thank god saintmichaeldefendthem came along to tell us the TRUTH!!! (sarcasm)

Helping the poor and loving your neighbor = left wing bias, Jesus never said nothing about that. LOLOLOL you are the funniest poster I have read all day. Thanks for the laugh.

 

​

The Roman Catholic Church is a dinosaur that has stood in the way of progress for centuries. Now, because of mass media, including the internet the Roman Catholic Church is finally being nailed for playing politics on choice, right to die, GLBT rights, overpopulation, funding illegal immigration, and pedaphile priests. Finally their political interests are being challenged.

Enjoy that laugh, you are going to need it. I am a progressive person who thinks the Roman Catholic church is a total con job. Grown men running around palaces in a dress at the cost to the poor - tsk, tsk. They are slipping. The battle between traditional and modern Catholics should split them in my lifetime. Pope Benny 16 has admitted he does not know what to do, and he has excommunicated members of both movements.

You are way off. I am agnostic, raised Presbyterian, we learned to hate your religion in Sunday school. Now hating the catholic church is popular politics, look how many viable reasons I have provided.

1). Woman's right to choose.

2). Right to die.

3). Overpopulation.

4). GLBT rights.

5). Funding illegal alien safe houses.

6). Pedaphile priests.

This group of political con artists is holding on to a greased pole. They have angered a lot of progressive people. Mass attendance is way down in France and Ireland. All Catholics need is a light push. And, we liberals are providing it with posts like this.

There is a lot of overhead for Catholics who claim to be helping the poor.​

.

 

Yes. That is what I said. You have intentionally misstated my position to make it sound like I said the opposite. Shame on you. Jesus is probably very unhappy with your behavior. What does the Bible say about bearing false witness?

Yes. But unless they meet the strict criteria for a charitable organization (not just a mere non-profit), they should still be subject to the same taxes the rest of us pay -- sales tax, use tax, excise tax, property tax, etc..

I think the answer to your very poorly-worded question is "because they are not paying their fair share of taxes." If that is indeed what you are asking.

Now you're just lying. Go ahead, show me the post. Show me the post where I made this alleged claim that "Christians do not pay taxes." I dare you. I defy you to cite that post. Time to end this little game of yours, Neutie. Let's see it. Let's have a link.

I'm not the liar who is intentionally misstating another poster's position. Perhaps you should be asking that question of yourself.

Such rich irony only comes along once in a lifetime. Let's have that link where I allegedly claimed "Christians don't pay taxes." I'll tell you what -- if you can produce that link, I will donate $25 to the charity of your choice and I will post a scan of the receipt on this website. If you can't produce the link, you will donate $25 to my favorite charity and likewise post the receipt. Once the outcome of my challenge is determined, the party on the wrong side will have seven days in which to make the donation. Are willing to accept my challenge? Are you man enough? Are you a good enough Christian? Time to put your money where your mouth is, Neutie.

Just produce the link. Regardless of which one of us is right, some deserving charitable organization will benefit.

 

Aiding and abetting criminal aliens is a crime.

Aiding and abetting and obstruction of justice are very serious crimes.

Do you honestly expect to be taken seriously in this discussion?

He probably said it was a good idea. However, that is completeyl irrelevant to the topic at hand because Jesus does not make immigration law in the United States.

 

No, you stated that Churches were not paying their fair share of the tax burden.

You CHOSE to ignore the fact that we DO pay taxes (hence the issue of question that a good skeptic would have caught).

You CHOSE to ignore the fact that, after WE pay taxes (WE ARE THE CHURCH!) donations can go to ANY non-profit organization and they ALL share the same tax exempt status. Why are ours sucking dry the tax man? But none of the others?

Nevertheless, you claimed that ONLY churches were skipping out of their tax burden.

Of course, you are not wrong, you are misquotes or some other such victimization ....

They are. Just like every other non-profit organization. When they buy things they pay sales tax just like everyone else.

And thus far, the only thing you seem to have an issue with is that churches hold large meeting on Sundays in addition to administrative meetings, and other organziations spread their ideology without large gathering EVERY week - just sometimes.

Nice.

Who is asking the poorly worded question? Why you of course, except it is not a question - it was a claim - and a stupid one.

Really, that pretty much defines obtuse. If someone is five steps ahead of you in seeing the inferences of your statements that does not make them a liar it makes you far less intelligent than the person who understands linkages and consequences.

Yes, you are. You are claiming that I directly stated that you said something.

I asked you a question and you went off half cocked - as usual.

Hence, you fail your test.

Are atheists always this petulant when they make mistakes? Is it better to spend half a day whining then to just say, "Whoops sorry, I see what you are driving at."

By all means, you explain how churches are not meeting their fair tax obligation but all other non-profits are.

Go right ahead.

Sure:



http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/50253_92406141104_5700325_n.jpg

It was a simple question, not a misquote (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*).

 

Are you going to accept my challenge or not?

 

What challenge?

That I said you said something you didn't?

I asked you a question (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) bag.

In response to:

We AND OUR ORGANIZATIONS are subject to same taxes and non-taxes as everyone else.

But pointing that out makes you a super victim. Got it.

apologize whenever you feel like it.

 

Good lord. Here:

"Such rich irony only comes along once in a lifetime. Let's have that link where I allegedly claimed "Christians don't pay taxes." I'll tell you what -- if you can produce that link, I will donate $25 to the charity of your choice and I will post a scan of the receipt on this website. If you can't produce the link, you will donate $25 to my favorite charity and likewise post the receipt. Once the outcome of my challenge is determined, the party on the wrong side will have seven days in which to make the donation. Are willing to accept my challenge? Are you man enough? Are you a good enough Christian? Time to put your money where your mouth is, Neutie."

Aha! He does comprehend what he reads!

Heh heh. Getting a little rattled are we?

Now, since you have done nothing to actually support your allegations but have instead executed a course of obfuscation that even Bill Clinton would envy (not to mention George Orwell), let's get really really clear on what we're talking about here. We are not talking about what you thought I said, or what you wished I'd said or what you think I might say or what I may have implied by what you thought you had interpreted or guessed at or speculated or arrived at through gestalt, divination, tarot cards, tea leaves, or reruns of Macguyver.

No sir, I am going to state specifically what I said and then illustrate your continued refusal to substantiate your allegation, how you have continually ducked my call for you to back it up, and how you have wasted my time with this little game of ring around the rosy which eventually ended up in my issuing the challenge above -- that's the one in the gigantic red letters up at the top of this thread just to make sure you're not missing it. At the TOP, not the BOTTOM, not the SIDE, but THE TOP. OK? You get it?

Great, here we go. Now pay attention because I'm only doing this once.

You said: "More super victim? Christians are not paying their fair share and you economically down trodden atheists are having to pick up the slack?"

In response to my statement: "That's all well and good except we're not talking about an "unlimited power to tax." We are talking about "paying their fair share" as I argued above -- meaning they should be subject to the same taxes the rest of us are."

Which was a response to Perdidochas who declared: "
If churches can be taxed, they can be taxed out of existence."

My response was specifically referencing that statement, and specifically the generic group of voluntary organizations we call churches.

You turned "churches" into "Christians." And then you tuned that into "Christians don't pay taxes" and presented that as my position. You intentionally misquoted me. When I asked you to cite the post where I said "Christians do not pay their fair share of taxes" you could not do it. Why? Because I never said it. Then instead of acknowledging your error (and by "error" I am being generous) you went on to try to further obfuscate my position and blur your intentional misstatement of it by blathering on about a bunch of irrelevant nonsense, as seems to be a favored tactic of yours.

I gave you several chances to correct yourself, including this one: "Dude, seriously... this is getting tiresome. When you respond to my posts, would you please ACTUALLY RESPOND TO WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE.

Go ahead, you cite the post where I wrote "Christians don't pay taxes." I dare you. I defy you to find that post. You can't because it DOES NOT EXIST. Now what does the Bible say about bearing false witness? Careful now -- Jesus is watching you."

Yet all we got from you was more pablum, more backpedaling, more irrelevant backfill, all so you could avoid owning up to your error -- like a grownup would do.

So I issued the challenge. You will not be able to prevail, you must acknowledge this -- if to no one else but yourself. But there is still time to do the right thing -- turn this unfortunate situation into a win for some people who have suffered an unfortunate fate: https://www.cancer.org/involved/donate/donateonlinenow/index

Just post the receipt here on the board so we all know you owned up to your mistake.

 

Agh, so we are writing in big letters.

I never claimed you said anything docher. I asked you a question and have spelled it out repeatedly EXACTLY what I meant.

You are just deliberately obtuse and have temper control issues. No worries.

Aha! He fails his test yet again.

What a wonderful faith that think everyone else is too stupid to reas

Of what? Asking you a question and watching your temper blow up again? Yes, terribly frightened of that

Now, lets do what you do:

WHERE DO I SAY THAT YOU SAY ANYTHING!?!

Go ahead, quote me. That is your challenge. Your challenge is for me to quote you saying something that I am alleged to have said.

I asked you a question, because you claimed we don;t have the same tax burden - we do.

YOU WERE JUST WRONG!

Agh, asking question is now making allegations is it?

Poor, poor super victim.

I have made no allegations (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) bag. You are now accusing me.

SO BACK IT UP.

Great, here we go. Now pay attention because I'm only doing this once.

You said: "More super victim? Christians are not paying their fair share and you economically down trodden atheists are having to pick up the slack?"

In response to my statement: "That's all well and good except we're not talking about an "unlimited power to tax." We are talking about "paying their fair share" as I argued above -- meaning they should be subject to the same taxes the rest of us are."
Which was a response to Perdidochas who declared: "
If churches can be taxed, they can be taxed out of existence."

We ARE (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)BAG!

We pay the same taxes as individuals, and we donate to organizations which enjoy the same tax emept status by meeting the exact same standards.

YOU ARE JUST WRONG!

Oh, so you are victim now because I said Christian rather than church? Are we in this thread talking about churches and tax empt status? Did I miss it about how you try to exempt churches from tax free status with one doubel standard after another?

Clearly you are victim.

ITS A QUESTION OF YOU, AND QUOTED, (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)BAG! I AM SORRY YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING WHAT A ? MEANS IN ENGLISH.

No its simple illiteracy on your part.

Which you have done before and failed every time.

Sure, because an illiterate bully is going to make me do so?

Don't you DARE ask me pointed questions that invalidate my claims! Shame, Shame. Truley frightened.

Figure out what a question mark means.

 

The irony of you calling me illiterate is priceless beyond words. You know what you did and now you won't take responsibility for it. I thought you were a better Christian than that. Of course I doubt Jesus would call me a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)bag either, would he? Good show. You should be very proud.

 

Sure, almost as priceliess as you none explanation of how churches have an unequal tax burden ... to other non-profits.

You were wrong, and you scream like a child.

And you lash out.

You cannot explain what you meant, but heh, your failing make me a bad Christian. Are all atheists this like this? Seem so.