Russian Flags Raised In Ukraine's South- How Far Will This Go?

Even though I think it would be a tragedy for the U.S. and E.U. to institute sanctions against Russia....Putin is leaving us with little choice.

The U.S. has proposed that Putin and Russia wait until the Crimea LEGALLY uses the Mechanisms provided in the Ukrainian Constitution to then LEGALLY create a referendum where a vote could be taken to either succeed from the Ukraine or not.

THAT'S IT!!!

All Putin and Russia have to do is just allow the LEGAL PROCESS to dictate the result.

Do you have ANY IDEA WHAT THE EFFECT would be to the already unstable Russian Economy if the United States imposed Economic Sanctions?

Putin is OUT OF HIS MIND...and he is NOT thinking about the well being of the average Russian Family.

AboveAlpha

 

You know....I was there!!!

HERE!!


British troops in Kosovo have escorted a convoy of Russian troops through the province to link up with forces holding Pristina airport.
Brits in Balkans Between 200 and 400 Russian soldiers took control of Pristina airport when they entered Kosovo ahead of Nato troops on Saturday.

The Russians have refused British forces in Pristina, the regional capital, access to the airport, seen as a possible headquarters for peacekeeping operations.

But the advance force, which travelled to Pristina from Bosnia, arrived in Kosovo with limited supplies and has been running out of water.

LINK...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/370461.stm

We offered to give them food and water and they were told by their superiors NOT to accept food and water from American's.

After a while they had ZERO WATER....and FINALLY....they accepted Water and Food from the Brits.

Do NOT talk about things you have no knowledge of.

AboveAlpha

 

Ahhh, the Pristina Incident. Isn't that when NATO Supreme Commander Wesley Clark ordered the British Troops to fire on the Russian Troops. In return, the British Army General refused and told Clark to go F himself.

Yes that was definitely that incident.

 

Cancelled

 

Which Ukrainians are you talking about, the nationalist ones on the Western side who lean towards Poland, or the majority of Ukrainians who lean towards Russia? Do you have any idea of the history in that part of the world? There are animosities between the Orthodox and Catholics which go as far back as the Fourth Crusade. Think Northern Ireland.

 

What happened was there was a mix up between the Russian Military and the Russian Government.

The Russian Government wanted to send a Russian Force to control the Pristina Airport strictly as a SYMBOLIC GESTURE and the Russian Military told their Government that Russia's Military Force Projection was so degraded that Russia could not either send any more than 200 to 400 to Pristina and as well did not have the capability to even RESUPPLY their own TINY FORCE unless they were allowed to FLY through already CLOSED AIRSPACE that NATO CONTROLLED and the Russian Military knew as we knew YOU DON'T SEND OLD AND SLOW FLYING CARGO PLANES OVER A WAR ZONE when NATO Fighter and Attack Jets and BILLION DOLLAR STEALTH BOMBERS might be flying and since such Russian Aircraft cannot detect such USAF Stealth Aircraft as well as in the process of enemy ground forces launching Anti-Aircraft Missiles...SAM's and Radar Guided AAA Fire at NATO Aircraft such Russian Cargo aircraft most likely would have been SHOT DOWN and then THE BLAME GAME WOULD ENSUE.

Russia's Military TOLD their Government there was NO WAY they could support those Russian Forces at Pristina and the British even had to ESCORT THE RUSSIAN'S to the Airport just to make sure nothing happened to them.

It was SAD to see as a bunch of Russian KIDS....who neither wanted to be there nor were they trained or led properly had to endure almost STARVING OF THIRST AND HUNGER.

We TRIED to help them out but some ASS#@!% RUSSIAN COLONEL told these Russian KIDS that is any of them drank an OUNCE of Water supplied by US they would be standing in line at a FIRING SQUAD!!!

Fortunately the BRITISH were able to give them water then food and the Italian's and one other country.

AboeAlpha

 

if the majority of Ukrainians lean towards Russia, how come they haven't taken over Kiev to demand the EU go to hell?

 

Look....unlike some people I do NOT want to see this pending DEBACLE TO OCCUR.

If the Crimea wants to Succeed they can do so LEGALLY.

The Ukrainian Constitution provides the Mechanisms for the people in the Crimea to LEGALLY have a referendum and VOTE to either succeed or not.

The U.S. and International Community have told Russia that we do not have an issue with this as long as it is done LEGALLY.

What Putin is doing is INSANE!

It is insane for Putin to create an incident that can only result in damage to Russia when all Putin and Russia have to do is wait and allow the Legal Process to play out.

Russia's economy CANNOT deal with U.S. Sanctions never mind BOTH U.S. and E.U. sanctions which is what will happen.

AboveAlpha

 

You're right, I forgot about the incident at the airport. Well the Kosovo war did one thing, it told Putin he better start building up Russia's armed forces because the U.S. had gotten out of hand. We're now seeing the consequences. As for Wesley Clark, I heard him speak and was shocked at his lies, but then again he's a Clinton man so can one expect differently?

 

It is legal for Crimea to declare its independence according to the Hague because of its decision on Kosovo. Clinton started the precedence, and just because the U.S. want's to say it is illegal in order to sway national and world opinion for its own self serving interests, doesn't make it illegal.

Also the only president Ukraine has is Yanukovich because he was forced to leave at the point of a gun. He came to an agreement with the 'junta' in Kiev and it was signed by France, the U.S., Germany, Poland and I believe Lithuania, I'm not sure. Yanukovich was to remain in office until the next elections, and they were to take place in December, but the next day he was told to leave and was shot at. The junta in Kiev is not legal, and since Yanukovich is still the President, all he has to do if he wanted to is to ask Russia to send troops into Ukraine.

 

Let us know when Crimea has a referendum that asks:

1. do you want to stay part of Ukraine.

2. do you want to be an independent country.

3. do you want to become part of Russia.

- - - Updated - - -

If Yanukovich did such, he would be the biggest traitor of all time.

 

There is NO WAY IN HELL a legal precedent of any kind exists from the events and decisions specific to Kosovo that could be applied to the Ukraine and Crimea.

Yanukovich is no longer President and the U.N. Legal Team specific to all Countries National Constitutional Laws has determined Yanukovich was without a doubt LEGALLY REMOVED from Office and even the Russian's living in the Crimea dropped their support for Yanukovich as after the killings and other atrocities he committed against his own people the Russian's in the Crimea would no longer support his rule.

AboveAlpha

 

You know....some people here keep going on about whether or not what Russia or the Crimea is doing is legal or within their rights and even though even the U.N. Legal Team had stated it is NOT....it really doesn't matter as all that DOES MATTER is CAUSE AND EFFECT.

Now Putin appears to be headed down a road that HE KNOWS has a big cliff at the end and STILL Putin refuses to turn around.

I KNOW Putin's reasons and as I stated those BIG 3 Reasons are #1 Revenge against the Ukraine because they did this during the Olympics...#2. Putin want's to send a message to other former Soviet States such as Georgia that THIS is what happens when you lean toward the West.....but Putin's REAL REASON is #3.

#3. A VERY short time ago the Natural Gas deposits in the Crimea were found to be over 1000 TIMES Greater than previously thought. Add to this the fact that the Ukraine has a very complex Natural Gas Pipeline system that is supplying Russian Natural Gas to Europe and DING! DING! DING!....we have an answer!!!

Putin FEARS that if the MASSIVE Crimean Natural Gas Deposits were accessed by the Ukraine in conjunction with American and European Corps. who have vast experience in doing this quickly and cheaply that the Ukraine could dramatically under cut Russian Natural Gas Pricing and replace Russia as the #1 Supplier of Natural Gas to Europe as the pipeline system already exists.

THAT...is what this is all about.

And here is the thing....this entire issue is completely unnecessary.

With American High Technology and Experience BOTH Russian and Ukrainian Natural Gas Deposits could be utilized and some could be piped to Europe and some could be turned into LNG...Liquid Natural Gas and shipped to markets WORLDWIDE.

The problem is PUTIN.

He can't seem to evolve and come to terms or even understand that RUSSIA...with it's massive land mass and huge amounts of resources IS A GOLD MINE.

Putin's aspirations are small....he is an ANALOG LEADER IN A DIGITAL WORLD....and the Russian People will suffer because of it.

AboveAlpha

 

US oil patch people tell me the Russians have a curious habit. They don't put gaskets in their flange joints. Every joint leaks - a lot.

 

Just because the nationalists who are in a minority believe in force, doesn't mean the majority believes in it as well. The minority group from the Western part were well organized. I read they were trained in Poland and Lithuania but I'm not sure, it might be true, or it might not be true.

From what I gathered Ukraine was tilting towards the E.U., but when Yanukovich realized that Russia wouldn't be able to continue it's favorable trade agreements if it joined the E.U., and that pensions would be cut in half among other austerity measures by the IMF, Yanukovich felt that Russia was giving them a much better deal. When Russia made its offer and promised to give Ukraine a loan of fifteen billion and promised to cut gas prices as well, Yanukovich went back to the E.U. and asked them if they would cover the losses that Ukraine would suffer through its trade agreements with Moscow, and they said no.

So in return Yanukovich said no and this infuriated Merkel as well as others in Poland and Lithuania so they began encouraging and even joining in with the protesters. From what I can tell, most of the people now are fearful because of the discriminatory laws passed by the junta and so they are turning more towards Russia. I read that the association of Greeks in Ukraine said they much prefer Russia than the government in Kiev, and that many Greeks wanted Russian passports.

 

Russian Oil Development Companies both Private and State Owned are the POSTER CHILDREN of inefficiency, corruption and ineptitude.

Many examples of such Russian companies that are granted a contract detail how they will save 10 Cents only resulting in losing $10.

At this point since Putin has effectively seized almost all at one time Private Russian Oil Firms and made them State Owned....Russian Oil Production has dropped or not increased as they simply do not have either the experience or technology necessary to make Siberian Oil Field Extraction Profitable.

Putin in what only can be described as ill placed faith in Russian Oil Tech. and it's ability to exploit Russian Oil Resources has single handedly negated what could have been an ECONOMIC BOOM and MASS JOB CREATION in the Russian Energy Sector.

AboveAlpha

 

The referendum has two question. One is if Crimea wants to remain a part of Ukraine but with greater autonomy, and the second one is if it wants to unite with Russia. Twenty one nations have been invited to look over the election.

As for Yanukovich, he hasn't as yet asked for Russian forces, but who knows what the future brings. Circumstances in Ukraine might become so bad that he will be forced to do so.

 

Putin is in the process of running Russia's oil & gas industry into the dirt. But Putin has no corner on that market. State-run oil industries have a dismal record. Pemex is the poster child for incompetently run oil and gas operations.

 

Russian Forces have been in the Ukraine's Crimea since the end of the Olympic Games.

Putin sent in Spetsnaz which as Russian Special Forces and I am VERY familiar with Spetsnaz tactics as I am proficient in Systema and Sambo.

Spetsnaz are a form of Terror Troop and their interrogation techniques are specifically based on using the person being interrogated FAMILY MEMBERS as leverage.

We do not use such techniques as any information gained from any person using the members of their Family to garnish such information is HIGHLY SUSPECT.

A Father or Mother would say ANYTHING whether it is true or not to prevent any harm to come to a child or vice versa.

Unfortunately a person being interrogated must be convinced that Spetsnaz would actually harm a child or family member so the entire process of information extraction is predicated on at least SOME TORTURE being enacted upon the person being interrogated Family Members as Spetsnaz SPECIFICALLY prefers the use and choice of CHILDREN as they are easy to handle and Spetsnaz believes this will have the desired effect to influence the person being interrogated to be forthcoming with information.

We have found a LONG time ago such techniques are not reliable and in fact any techniques that actually cause physical life threatening trauma to a person being interrogated is self defeating as the body and nervous system just shuts down.

And this is why although abhorrent FAUX DROWNING via water boarding was used by the CIA and other U.S. Contractors as Water boarding a healthy human being gives the interrogator an almost 100% result of non-lethality where as Spetsnaz Techniques that use anything from Electric Shock, Filling the Intestines with water via hose thus extremely painful expansion and a vast number of other highly lethal methods simply will cause anyone being interrogated TO SAY ANYTHING in order to make the pain stop.

That means such information can NOT be trusted as to it's viability.

AboveAlpha

 

Russia has many republics that want freedom.

when will Russia let them have a referendum to have freedom?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_subjects_of_Russia

 

If I were in Putin's shoes, I would take Crimea and a few eastern provinces where Russians and Ukrainians leaning to Russia are in majority. This is all what is needed. Possibly, if nationalists will be not stopped, this will end this way. If the process will aggravate, this may lead to a new confrontations in a much larger scale and the global economy will be cracking. Some governments in EU will change and even NATO will be dissolved as ineffective and harmful to the economy tool.

 

The Russians would love to let Chechnya go, it's costing them a fortune which could well be spent on the Russians, but let's look at the geo politics. Other than destroying Russia's lifeline and its gas and oil pipes, something which would make the West very happy, it would also be restoring the Ottoman Empire. ..something again would make the West very happy, since they would see it as a force against Russia.

This of course would be at the expense of the Orthodox people in the Balkans and Caucasus, the ones Russia has always felt obligated to protect from Western and Turkish incursions and persecutions the way it is doing now in Syria. The only difference is that Russia now feels a moral obligation to protect all Christians in the Middle East and Africa because of the West's blatant indifference.

All of this seems reminiscent of the 19th century power plays, so why did Merkel say that Russia was the one going back to the 19th century? Seems like a bit of projection to me...or is it paranoia?

 

russia is the biggest country of the world in area, itt's a shame that they want more. Despite the country is very rich in natural resources, the population is very poor, and will continue poor if they don't kil the..
but what have those russian people of crimea in the head? if they really vote for anexation to russia, difficult to believe their life will be better than if ukraine eith crimea join to the eurozone. Isn't Polonia better now than the other ex soviet republics that obey to putin?

 

We could ask the same thing of the people in Western Ukraine, what is in their heads, since the E.U. and IMF will cut their pensions in half, and medical care will be lowered seventy percent. They have now become perpetual serfs to the E.U. and U.S.

 

First results coming in.

91% in favor of joining Ruissia

9% against

Even more than 50% Crimean Tatars came to the polls. Large majority voted for Russia.

It's the final nail in the coffin of the Nazi's in Kiev. This will be a good lesson for the followers of Hitler in Ukraine. Make anymore sudden moves and they can kiss goodbye to Eastern and Southern Ukraine.'