Secret Russian document offers rare, official glimpse into campaign against West

Your link shows why Lenin coined the term "useful idiots." Chamberlain's cowardice helped push the world toward war. Period.
Russia never offered peace.
The Ukrainians' defense of freedom is everyone's defense of freedom.

 

Not sure bout what Trump would have done--- we have a neocon feeding frenzy going on in congress and he may have had to go with the flow.

As things went there was a negotiated peace agreement .. not within hours .. but within the first week or two of the war .. Zelensky and Putin had peace talks in Belarus then Istanbul ..and had an agreement in place .. Istanbul accord. The main provision in that agreement was that Ukraine remain a neutral state.

The "Donor Class" wanted nothing to do with peace... whispered in Biden's ear .. who Whispered in the Ear of Boris (well .. and not like the Donor class .. many of whom hail from London .. did not do some whispering directly) and Boris Rushed into scuttle the deal .. famously promising "We have your back for as long as it takes"

and here we are .. another 400 Billion down the toilet that could have been spent on things like Infrastructure - Technology - Education - help us compete in the economic war that is ensuing .. You Know .. LIke ummmm like China maybe ?? the real war .. that we are losing badly - and well .. our proxies in Ukraine losing badly as well .. showing and exposing our weakness on the military side of things .. Producing 40,000 Artillery shells a month .. in an artillery war .. where Russia is firing 10-20,000 a day .. and is in war economy mode producing 200,000 shells a day and ramping up for more .. Putin has the North Korean workers mobilize to Russia to make shells. ..

but I digress. These "forever wars" do not benefit us.. in the 20 years since 911 - there was 10 Trillion .. in excess military spending .. 500 Billion per year .. in 2000 dollars.. that's 500 Billion per year could have been spent on roads - infrastructure Technology -- helping us do battle in the economic war we are now fully engaged. .. instead we threw that money down the toilet .. chasing AK-47 wielding Desert rats ... invading countries that had nothing to do with 911 .. then in 2011 .. nary a decade after 911 .. we are fighting along side Al Qaeda in 2 wars .. with Brother El Saud. the Islamic State freedom fighters our Proxy army in Syria .. Obama's beloved "JV Team" .. our boys in Syria .. and things just get real Orwellian from there .. When the "Stop Arming Terrorist Act" comes to the floor in 2017 .. after 6 years of arming Terrorists in Syria .. with Sophisticated US technology and all kinds of other goodies .. moved all of the stuff left over from the War in Yugoslavia Al Qaeda and spawn .. this new Islamic State a raging Genocide .. Islamist Strict Sharia Wonderland - dark age style .. open air executions - posted on internet .. torture, rape, forced marriage .. xenophobic Pogroms .. the death tally at least 500,000 civilians when all said and done. That's where Genocide Joe gets his nick from .. or rather .. cut is teeth ... got a complicity in Genocide rap for Yemen as well. .. seems we got Trouble with the Houthi's again.

So... "Stop arming Terrorist Act" comes to the floor of the House .. Tulsi Gabbard --- 14 bipartisan Co-Signers -- and .. yeah .. no ..the other of the 430 members on the Donor Payroll would rather continue to arm the 911 Terrorists with sophisticated US technology .. like manpads ... perfect for taking out civilian airliners .. because Al Qaeda and ISIS are now all good in our hood ?? .. I don't know .. You explain it .. When Rand Paul introduces the Bill to the Senate he gets a total of ZERO .. cosigners . Everybody in the Senate wants to continue arming the 911 Boys .. in a dystopian Orwellian doublespeak reality.

 

In somewhat of a defense of Chamberlain he may have been forced to stall for time as Great Britain re armed after their military had atrophied after WWI. But your point is well taken.

 

The extra time also benefited the Germans' build-up. Plus, the Czechs had a pretty good little army and well-prepared defensive positions. With appropriate support they would have posed difficulties for the Germans.

 

Sure but Germany was way ahead of Great Britain. The League of Nations should have acted as the Germans illegally built up their military in direct defiance of the Versailles conditions. The Germans fought the Spanish civil war which was evidence of their military build up.

 

The Brits had already begun their substantial rearmament program in 1934.

 

Very will written, thank you. I wrote above, even if what we are doing in Ukraine weren't stupid, pointless and harming us more than Russia, we have far bigger fish to fry at home. Our independent middle class is disappearing. We are becoming a neo-feudal nation and that appears to be how the donor class wants it. That a "Stop Arming Terrorist Act" cannot get even a substantial minority to support it? Taking on the donor class is indeed daunting.

I made the same point above with a link stating that. But to me the larger point is, this isn't 1940s. We have nukes now and more. I don't think a Hitler today could militarily take over Europe. That's not to write we don't have challenges but we've hurt ourselves more than Russia with this Ukraine BS.

 

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse. A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself.”
― John Stuart Mill

 

I'm a vet and this is an awesome quote. I joined the USAF to gain a skill and earn some college money and maybe see the world and I did all of that. But in basic, a Sargent reminded us that ultimately, we must be ready to lay our lives down for a cause. Statements like the one you quote brought me back to reality: we must be ready to die for a great cause.
My point in this thread? Ukraine is not that cause. We've got much bigger fish to fry and should not direct one red cent to this idiocy.

 

‘Trump nation seems to be dredging up and repeating long discredited nonsense.

“We still have yet to figure out if it was the Russians .. and just because they were able to have influence in one area .. doesn't given them the ability to influence in general . and the idea that this influence was negative .. Harmed our electoral Process" .. is false propaganda on steroids.”

False. Totally absurd.

In fact, the FBI was first alerted in July 2016. The troll farms had been running for a couple of years at that point.

The details of the program was laid out thoroughly in the Mueller Report.

Otherwise, you’re singing Putin’s song.

 

The Russians are rank amateurs compared to the Chinese Communist Party.

 

We know in hindsight that Germany was not as strong as it seemed at the time. Chamberlain was misinformed by his military people as to the potential for German air power in particular to devastate Britain. While we now understand this was a mistake, he had no reason to doubt what he was being told. He may have hoped Hitler would end his expansion there, but Chamberlain also made sure that Britain re-armed and he also declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland.

Calling him a 'coward' is unfair. He deserves to be remembered as a man who made a serious misjudgement - one of many during that period. I would rate him substantially higher than Putin's useful idiots, who not only want to turn Ukraine over to Putin, but would happily abandon America's European allies and return to something like interwar American isolationism knowing what a spectacular failure that was.

 

I wish the 'edit' function was up for longer on this forum.

Just wanted to clarify that 'one of many' was many people - plenty misjudged Germany during the mid-late 1930s

 

Yes, most dictatorships now days do carry on information warfare, we can see it even here on these forums, that said most of it is not very effective and I stead is designed to just muddy the waters. It certainly isn't as effective as some people seem to think, no, it hasn't effected the outcome of any election and the exaggerated claims made by Democrats of supposed Russia collision have been exposed as complete made up lies.

Honestly, I am far more concerned about left leaning governments in the west using this as an excuse to censor political free speech in the west to their partisan political advantage. That is a far larger danger than some stupid troll factory poster posting garbage no one believes anyway.

 

B.S.. Russia is just trying to delay as it is at the disadvantage. Putin has broken ever treaty and agreement it had with Ukraine and the west and any future agreement he would also break or ignore so there is no point bothering. Far better to keep the pressure on knowing that Putin is only squirming now because the pressure is building and he is running out of cash and reserves.

That is the best option the world has when dealing with this criminal dictator.

 

Meh. Let him make the peace offer and accept it. Then if violated, start back up again. Like the Hamastinians we could simply look at a cease fire meaning, "time out while we reload!" We might even save a buck or two with this method even if violated. If Russia kept this one agreement? All the better.

 

Not a good idea. Minsk 3 won't do anything more then the first three did and that will just give Russia time to retrain and reequip itself. Right now Russia is in an ever tighter place with its financial reserves exhausted by the end of this year plus of the 8 millon men between 18-40 Russia had in it's population in 2022 1-2 million have fled, 500,000 have been killed or wounded, so around 25% of it's military aged male population is gone. They are very likely to be forced to admit defeat in the next two years or face the fact they have permanently destroyed their demographic future. Putin financially is also in a pickle as his reserves of cash are soon gone. That means he either steals more from some where to pay for his war, make major spending cuts which he can't do while at war, or he prints money sparking mass inflation.

Putin's back is getting ever closer to the wall and he knows it so keep the pressure up and soon he will have no choice but to admit defeat. Either way honoring our treaty obligations to Ukraine (which we signed in the 1990s agreeing to guarantee Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity in exchange for Ukraine giving up it's nuclear weapons) is both the morally right thing to do as well as strategically the right thing to do.

 

IMHO, Ukraine is that cause.

 

Excellent thread and post -- and it goes hand-in-glove with what's been called the "Gerasimov Doctrine". I posted this in another thread, but it may be useful here, too: https://cepa.org/comprehensive-reports/the-evolution-of-russian-hybrid-warfare-executive-summary/

Chief of the Russian General Staff, Valery Gerasimov, is himself a very interesting person: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valery_Gerasimov

 

As you wish.

 

People, Americans are not dying in Ukraine. To abandon Ukraine to Russia, will change that dynamic.

 

The good news is no westerner needs to die for Ukraine. In order to fulfill our treaty obligations (signed in the 1990s for Ukraine to give up it's nuclear weapons in exchange for western guarantees on its independence and territorial integrity) we just need to materially and financially support them to resist hostile invasion. No west boots on the ground needed.

Strategically it is also very good for the west too as it kick's Putin's front teeth in and deters him from future military expansion attempts.

 

You digress a lot.

There was never an agreement between Russia and Ukraine. There are no “Istanbul Accords”

The Russians decided to launch a full invasion after Putin underestimated Biden’s resolve.

The “donor class” showed up at Trump’s Palm Beach fundraiser.

Trump is a vocal supporter of Putin and the Russian invasion.

He spent the last nine months bullying the GOP into holding up aid to Ukraine in order to aid Moscow.

BTW, how’s the weather in St. Petersburg?

 

An odd assertion to make, since Russian trolls have obviously played a major role in selling Trump nation on isolationism, and promoted their opposition to aid to Ukraine.

 

You are correct that certain posters here are Russian troll farm employees. You are incorrect that Trump supports Putin or Russian's invasion. It is sad to see someone who has succumbed to debunked lies. For the record, yes, Russia signed a treaty garrenteeing Ukraine's independence and territorial integrity in the 1990'w and again in the 2000's but Putin has now twice broken to those treaties with his two invasions.