Seizures and sanctions on Russian property go beyond the reasonable

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by kazenatsu, Apr 6, 2022.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Right now we are hearing about many seizures of property owned by Russians abroad, and sanctions on Russia, with the intention of trying to "punish" Russia and put pressure on Russia's wealthy and influential.

    But are these seizures of Russian property and all the sanctions really fair and reasonable?

    What I mean is that it would be one thing if other countries were just banning trade with Russia, and taking assets into protective custody from Russian citizens they specifically suspected had done something wrong.
    That is not what this discussion is about.

    It seems like other countries are going far beyond that, trying to just seize any valuable assets if they are owned or believed to be controlled by wealthy individuals in Russia.
    Not only just seize the assets, but several politicians are talking about wanting to sell those assets the government has seized to raise money.

    This is not exactly fair. This is just stealing property when there is no real evidence the owners have done anything illegal. It's also discrimination against people just for being Russian nationality.

    Here is an article about Finland seizing valuable Russian artwork that a Russian museum had been lending to a museum in Italy.
    (Finland seizes Russian artwork worth $46 million under sanctions, Maite Fernández Simon, April 6, 2022)

    It seems some of these property seizures have gotten really mean-spirited.
    It's also not really respecting "rule of law", in the sense that property is just being taken from people not for the reason of violating any law. This isn't property they tried to buy after the sanctions were put in place, this is property that was bought before. It is not really fair to the owners because they were not put on notice that their property could later be seized when they put their property in that position.

    This type of government policy does not respect individual rights. But many people do not seem to care because the targeted owners are mostly very wealthy people, and it is seen as part of an "all out war" against Russia. (In war things are not always fair to individuals)
     
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  2. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe you are absolutely correct. However, at the same time, I find it very hard to be sympathetic given the circumstances.
     
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  3. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

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    I also think we need to criticize Russia for seizing property and not respecting individual rights.
     
  4. stratego

    stratego Well-Known Member

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    Why? The people whose properties are seized have no political power. Biden only sanctioned the Zapadniki because he can't sanction the Siloviki. As I posted before the sanction is like taking Jay-Z's yacht and expecting Biden to change politically.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2022
  5. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is a horrible situation which needs to end.
     
  6. stratego

    stratego Well-Known Member

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    He's picking on the wrong people. The only ones he could sanction are Zapadniki, pro-Western oligarchs who invested in the West. The ones making military decisions are Siloviki, KGB-oligarchs, who don't have assets in the West to be seized.
     
  7. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    Your point is reasonable, but it is well worth noting that we are not talking about seizing property from random Russian citizens who have no involvement in the Russian government. These individuals you are referring to are oligarchs
     
  8. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its tantamount to seizing Bezos' yacht for US attrocities in Yemen. Its a political stunt meant to appease the lowest common denominator who think we should be nuking Russia right now and who have been programmed to think that all rich people are bad anyway.
     
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  9. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    Are you suggesting the US is an oligarchy?
     
  10. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That wasnt my point, but now that you mention it...

    "Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people may or may not be distinguished by one or several characteristics, such as nobility, fame, wealth, education, or corporate, religious, political, or military control."

    ...YES
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  11. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    exactly, that never happens though, they forget what Russia is doing to Ukraine
     
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  12. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I cant speak for others on this, but criticizing Russia seems unecessary to me as our media and the prevailing narrative has that well covered. It shouldn't be necessary to preface all mentions of 'Ukraine has the following problems...' with 'but Russia is bad too.' This 'you have to pick one side or the other' crap is so tiresome... They both suck. Pointing out the one side thats being ignored should not be an indication of support for the other. Not to rational people, anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  13. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Russian Oligarchs weren't rich before Putin, and now they are billionaires. It's a kleptocracy. And then They launder their money in the united states ( a lot of it with the help of Trump by purchasing his condos in NYC ) and thus US has jurisdiction not to mention they are aiding and abetting Putin, a war criminal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  14. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh for Christ's sakes. Have you done any research on this at all? No one wants to nuke Russia, stop it with the strawman. "programmed to think that all rich people are bad'? Really? So you kneejerk right wing platitudes and you think you are offering a merit worthy argument?

    Russian Oligarchs weren't rich before Putin, and now they are billionaires. It's a kleptocracy. And then They launder their money in the united states ( a lot of it with the help of Trump by purchasing his condos in NYC ) and thus US has jurisdiction not to mention they are aiding and abetting Putin, a war criminal which gives the international community, including the US, jurisdiction. (see Rule 157 of the International Humanitarian Law ) noting that, as I understand it, other countries are seizing their assets as well, so this is an international effort, not just a US effort.

    https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docindex/v1_rul_rule157

    But, I'm just making an semi-educated guess based on the above.. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on international law will chime in.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see, so guilt by association.

    Don't you think it's possible some wealthy Russian businessmen who did not get wealthy through corruption might get swept up in this?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can you better define what precisely you mean by "oligarch"? What's the criteria?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
  17. Hey Now

    Hey Now Well-Known Member

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    Not just in the US; Jez, they have basically bought London and the UK as well.
     
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  18. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    I was being a bit sarcastic.. but yes we do have an oligarchy.


    It's basically a person who has a significant political influence on the government, who is not formally a government official themselves, but works for the government (and vice versa) and is a part of the government's regular functions. In Russia, when you're a foreign power negotiating with the Russian government, you are also often made to negotiate with their oligarchs. Oftentimes these Russian oligarchs are the heads of their oil and gas corporations
     
  19. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    Seizing their property is no less fair than them, the Russians, invading the Ukraine with the purpose of destroying the country's infrastructure and dwellings and slaughtering the population.
     
  20. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    And if they want someone to blame, his name is Vlad the Bad Putin !!!
     
  21. Just A Man

    Just A Man Well-Known Member

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    After what Russia is now doing I couldn't care less what punishment they receive. I don't want the world to be "fair" to Russia. I want the world to bring Russia to it's knees by any means.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
  22. stratego

    stratego Well-Known Member

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    You're taking power away from the people who can influence the population with Western
    Again, wrong group of Oligarchs. You're talking about the Zapadniki, who got rich from capitalism after the fall of the Soviet Union. It's debatable whether they're more corrupted than Nancy Pelosi, but that's not the main point. The point is that they don't have any political power. The implicit agreement is that they stay out of politics and they keep their wealth. The other group of oligarchs like Sergei Shoigu ate the Siloviki. They are connected to the military and the KGB. They have influence in military decisions, but don't tend to keep their assets in the West. Biden can't sanction the Siloviki so he took the useless gesture of sanctioning the Zapadniki. This in turn will make the Siloviki stronger at home. On some rare occassion there is a Zapadnik who is actually connected to Putin, like Roman Abramovich. For a guy like him, they recommended no sanction. Moral of the story, if you are actually connected politically, no sanctions, if you were pro-West, sanctions.
     
  23. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    They are aiding and abetting a war criminal
    And they are being sought by the International Community not just United States
     
  24. stratego

    stratego Well-Known Member

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    Look for the list of sanctioned oligarchs and make a note of who's on it and who's not.

    Guy from Russian Environmental Protection agency - sanctioned

    Guy that mines diamonds - sanctioned

    Guy that sells Italian luxury goods -sanctioned

    Gal that helps Russians invest in Europe -sanctioned

    Guy named Vladimir Putin - Not sanctioned

    Guy in charged of the Russian Department of Defense - Not sanctioned

    Guys who build weapons for Russia - Not sanctioned
     
  25. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    They aided and abetted a war criminal, so the international community is seizing their assets.
     

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