Should homosexuality be illegal?

Just because you don't like the outcome does not mean it's different. A marriage license is a marriage license and as long as it's not yours, it's none of your business.


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There is a difference between believing homosexuality is perverted but tolerating homosexuals, and destroying people because they do not believe as you do.

The opponents of LGBTs are willing to tolerate LGBTs as long as the LGBTs return the tolerance. You can be lesbian, live your life, go to work, get an education, get a spouse, I really don't care what 2 consenting adults do in that regard, and its really not the governments business either. But stay out of my life, leave me alone and I will leave you alone. That includes my business - you run your business your way, I'll run mine my way.

That's the failure - but the LGBTs won't leave alone anyone who does not endorse the LGBT lifestyle. We have been through the examples of the LGBT hysteria - Brendan Eich, David & Jason Benham, Patricia Heaton, Memories Pizza, Cakes by Mellissa, etc. Once a person crosses the LGBTs, no apology or punishment is enough to satisfy the LGBTs, they want scorched earth total destruction of people that do not agree with them.

Now you can say gays have been murdered - been through that many times already. Almost all the people on the list were not killed because they were LGBT, they were killed for other reasons that had nothing to do with their LGBT, they were murder victims who happened to be LGBT and were therefore included in the exaggerated list.

And how many have been killed lately? How many lose their jobs solely because of being LGBT? None. Society is past that myth of LGBT oppression.

Bu the LGBTs don't care, they have become what they once hated.

 

Actually many people have lost their job for being gay. And it is completely legal in some states

 

How many times are you going to rehash that tired old incorrect claim?

The last time you brought this up you posted some people who lost their job because they were gay. You were wrong. One lost her job because she was a PE teacher who got sexually involved with a student, others lost their job at religious schools because they lied on their applications (claiming they would uphold Catholic or religious doctrine when they knew they would not).

No employer today will simply fire someone for no other reason then the employee was LGBT.

 

This, exactly.

I live in a high percentage LGB area (not so much of the T, but where is?), and it's been famously 'alternative' for many decades now. We all got along just fine. No problems, no gay bashings, no trouble with conservative cake bakers, etc. Then the monster that is a politicised movement powered by university students, neofeminists and would-be social engineers has damaged some of that good will and community spirit.

The demand for 100% allegiance is absurd. And the subsequent demonising for the tinniest slight, or even indifference, is worse than religious evangelism. They are out of control, like children given the keys to the city.

 

Then surely you would do better not to cede semantical ground to those who imagine marriage is a manmade institution.

Where did I say anything about that?

To be sure.

Where did I say anything about licenses?

 

The courts recognize and oversee marriage.

 

You can believe what you want, however people KILL themselves because their families and churches tell them they are perverted. When we are compared to murders and pedophiles real damage is being done. If people want to believe that fine, but when you preach that real physical and emotional damage is being done and social conservatives refuse to take responsibility for that. That's what is frustrating.

What does that look like in your opinion? I'm honestly curious about your perception of how gay people aren't leaving you alone. Perhaps if I could understand that better I can address this point. Where have we gone "too far."

Most recently? 49 people in Orlando who were perceived to be gay. And the other 50+ people who were shot.

Here are a few quick articles I found about people who have lost their jobs because they were gay:

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...ere-that-is-still-legal/#sthash.EUHRBLFz.dpuf
5 cases in the last decade

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/6/8900589/gay-discrimination-oregon-teacher
A case from 2015

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/crystal-moore-south-carolina-29-states-can-fire-you-being-gay
2014 police chief with a clean record mysteriously fired after coming out.

The point is it does happen. If not firing, harassment and discrimination definitely occurs still. It has happened in my own work place to a gay male coworker of mine. I didn't ever come out at that job for fear of harassment. Intimidating me into the closet is in itself harassment. It still exists, I agree it's less but it is not eradicated.



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Family issues do contribute to some people committing suicide - that has nothing to do with the law or the LGBT activists pushing their agenda on the entire nation and their scorched earth policy.

Do LGBTs commit suicide because a church declares homosexuality to be a sin? I don't believe that for one second.

And now the true attitude comes out - you blame and accuse "social conservatives" for the deaths of LGBTs. In other words, people who do not believe as you do, you are accusing of murder.

Where did your tolerance go? Your claim to just want to live and let live certainly did not last long.

I don't post my personal information. I have provided examples from the public media (Brendan Eich, etc).

Terrorism from a foreigner. But I will grant you that example.

From here http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/5-people-who-were-fired-for-being-gay-and-the-29-states-where-that-is-still-legal/#sthash.EUHRBLFz.dpuf[/url]


Your first example is Lisa Howe - she has been used as an example several times before. She was employed by Belmont University, a Christian University which requires employees to sign a morality agreement before being hired. The University actually turned a blind eye to immoral behavior as long as the behavior was not flouted in their faces. Howe lived as a lesbian, that was fine, until she had a meeting with students and proclaimed her homosexuality and her pregnancy. She violated the agreement she signed and was dismissed.

Howe was given leeway despite lying on her employment agreement, she abused the leeway provided by a Christian University. She deserved to be fired. Your link does not provide all the facts - very convenient but expected.

Next is Vandy Beth Glenn - a case from 11 years ago, ancient history, I'm skipping it.

Next is Michael Carney - a case from 1986! Do you even read your links or just make up stuff about them? He actually left his job and was not fired. His employer (Springfield, MA police dept) did not hire him after he applied to return. He sued and was eventually rehired. I could not find why he was not rehired, I suspect it is more likely he was not rehired for reasons unrelated to his homosexuality.

#4 is Jodi O’Brien - she was not fired. Her application to Marquette University (a Jesuit run Christian university which requires employees to meet a Christian code of conduct) was rejected because she did not meet the code of conduct.

#5 Peter TerVeer - he claims he was fired because he "liked" a homosexual facebook page. He claims harassment from his supervisor, and then took 37 consecutive days off without proper approval and was fired. This might be an example of someone being fired for being gay, but its not clear since there are other reasons for firing him. This is a weak example for your argument.


I'm going to declare your first link a failure. Based on it, and the fact you obviously did not read your own evidence, I'm not spending time on the rest of your links.

 

Less of a foreigner than Ted Cruz.

He was born here- to immigrant parents.

 

Absolutely they do. When their parents, school and church are all preaching the same message you don't think that affects them emotionally? Church is absolutely a part if that. My girlfriend still goes to therapy for Mormon guilt because she's gay. They brainwash people and it takes years to undo that damage.

I didn't blame all social conservatives, I blamed their preaching. And yes, I blame the ones that tell their sons and daughters they're going to rot in hell because of something they can't control. If you tell your kid that and they kill themselves the parents should get accessory to murder, or at least child abuse charges. Think it all you want, don't have gay relationships all you want, but do not damn a child to hell. At a minimum it causes emotional damage that takes years to recover from. At the worst they kill themselves or someone else.

He was born and raised here. Like the other poster said Ted Cruz is more of a foreigner than this guy was.




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You decide its the church that's at fault for LGBTs mental problems, I claim their mental health problems are fundamental to their lifestyle.

Prove LGBT is involuntary. It has not been done. That's the Holy Grail of the LGBTs that would grant them total legal superiority, if they had it then it would be in every media outlet in the nation.

You contend religion causes damage, I contend that the LGBT attitude and lifestyle causes damage, or is a symptom of deeper problems.

Ted Cruz is fully Americanized, he is more of an American than many people who were born in the USA. The Orlando shooter was born in the USA but was not Americanized, he was a Muslim and Islam does not recognize nations.

You put too much into the location of birth instead of what really counts - the attitude and values.

 

You may claim anything you like. It is legal for you to practice religions that have supported pedophiles and child abusers and caused untold trauma in children. Your views on the effects of homosexuality are noted and dismissed.

 

How do you account for the atheist, accepting, liberal families, whose gay children have almost the same rate of depression/suicidal ideation as those from religious and/or conservative families? And the high rate of post hormone and/or surgery transgenders (they would have us believe it's the magical 'cure') who suffer from depression and suicidal ideation?

 

I said church was part of the problem, not the entire problem. What "lifestyle" are you referring to? People always say "their lifestyle" but that term confuses me. My lifestyle is similar to most Americans. I get up, go to work, occasionally go out for happy hour with co-workers, then go home and walk the dogs, read or watch tv. Seems pretty normal to me...

I have far more proof than you do. I actually live it, what proof do you have it's voluntary? None. I at least have personal experience and real accounts from other gay people. I didn't choose this any more than you chose to be straight. If it's simply a choice why won't one single conservative choose to be gay to prove their point?

Some churches are part of the problem because they condition people to think being gay is wrong from the time we're kids. Kids grow up believing their parents, teachers and church leaders then as they discover that they are gay have to figure out how to deal with it. Do they hide it and live in turmoil to make others happy? Or do they embrace it while risking every relationship that has ever mattered to them? They literally cannot win and many turn to suicide.

I haven't seen any proof he wasn't Americanized. Americans can be radicalized and are certainly capable of atrocious acts. Just because he did one doesn't mean he wasn't "Americanized"



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One in four youth have more than passing thoughts of suicide and all demographics are impacted by that. Being a gay teen certainly ups the risk and being in a conservative environment increases the risk even more. There are a few hypotheses I have. One is that they still feel isolated. It's not very common for there be many out gay kids in school, so even if they are supported they are still lonely. Two they don't know what it means to be gay because they don't have as many role models showing them. Everything in our society teaches kids how to they'll grow up, date, meet "the one", get married and have babies. What options do they have? All the same ones, but it's hard to see that when you're young and it seems like an eternity away.

Transgender people are definitely at an increased risk for suicidal thoughts. There are many issues with that which require years of counseling. No one said it's a magical cute and in fact a person has to complete hundreds of hours of counseling before they can undergo surgery or anything. No one says transitioning will be easy, I think they say it will be extremely hard. Can you imagine telling everyone you know you're transitioning? Talk about stress. I think it's easy to see why they are high risk


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You have no proof, you have anecdotal experience based on your life and your immediate surroundings.

I can claim the same as you - I live my life, through my charitable work I have helped in a real material sense many people without regard to their religion or politics, I have not persecuted any LGBTs and do not know anyone who has, in fact I do not know any LGBTs much less impact their lives. Yet I and people just like me are sought out and targeted for abuse and vilified from the President on down. Even you, knowing almost nothing about me, blame me for your perceived misfortune.

And since there are far more people like me than like you, I can claim my "evidence" is stronger than yours.

***

If you think being LGBT is not a choice, then fine even though I disagree. I believe LGBT is abnormal and likely a mental illness, I believe homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage an abomination to God, yet have I ever demanded you be forced to undergo medical treatment or sent to a reform camp to be "re-educated"? No, I have repeatedly stated that you live your life and don't impose on me, I will do the same for you. I do not even demand people respect me, as long as they do not try to impose themselves on me or mine.

Why can't the LGBTs do the same? Because they have a deep seated hatred of all none LGBTs.

 

Autistic people have the same potential to feel isolated and lonely. Visually impaired people have the same potential to feel isolated and lonely. Kids in wheelchairs have the same potential to feel isolated and lonely. It's an unfortunate feature of being in a minority. However, none of these people is compelled to see isolation and loneliness as anything other than just one of the many challenges they face in being 'different'. They can choose to let that one challenge defeat them, or let all challenges drive them to have a good life regardless.

 

Yes, but how often do you see people telling an autistic kid that he cannot join your church because he will not conform to the behavior society demands of "normal" people?

Do you tell a young man in a wheelchair that he cannot get married because his injury prevents him from having children?

Anti-gay bigots create an extra challenge for homosexuals, so it would not surprise me to hear that suicide rates are higher for that segment of society. Most of them overcome that challenge, but since the pressure to conform is much greater for a homosexual, I would expect the failure rate to be higher.

If you had realized early in your life that you were homosexual, would you have folded (conforming to the demands of society) or would you be strong enough to endure the hate that is directed toward homosexuals?

 

If was born into a culture which didn't 'offer homosexuality as one of the life options', which many cultures don't, I would hope that I had enough sense of self-preservation to override any urges not in line with cultural mores. Indulging such urges (when same are recognised by the culture and community as negatives) would be seen as weakness, not strength.

 

Not so. There are many cultures and societies where that one in four is more like one in 10 or less. And these ARE conservative environments.

You need to broaden your horizons.

 

I would say a weakness of the culture or the community in failing to respect basic human rights. Anybody can respect the rights of those who agree with you. It takes strength of character to respect the rights of those who disagree with you.

 

Japan has a very high suicide rate and is also overall, quite conservative.

 

What does Japan have to do with it?

- - - Updated - - -

How are they "failing to respect"? It's just not a factor that people consider. Irrelevant - until such time (if such time) as it arises. Since that's very seldom, no need to address it as though it's common. That would be silly.

 

The attitude you express in your post is a good example of "failing to respect" others. You dismiss them since they are in the minority "Since that's very seldom, no need to address it as though it's common."