Tariffs versus Corporate Taxes

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by kazenatsu, Sep 23, 2024.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Right now (2024) the Democrat supporting media is waging a propaganda war against Trump's (candidate for President) tariff policies he supports.
    The claim is that higher tariffs would be bad for the economy.

    But a huge irony and seeming inconsistency here is that the Democrat Party candidate for President, Kamala Harris, has repeatedly said will support much higher corporate tax rates, as part of her economic policy plan.

    So how do tariffs compare with corporate taxes?

    It seems to me that tariffs make it more difficult for companies in other foreign countries to sell their goods to the United States. While higher corporate taxes make it more difficult for companies in the United States to be able to compete with foreign companies.

    It almost seems like corporate taxes are going to target American companies to be hurt, whereas tariffs target foreign companies.


    It's true that tariffs will increase many consumer prices, but that is also true for higher corporate taxes. (In both cases, the burden of taxation will end up falling mainly on the consumer)

    Those who oppose tariffs say it will hurt trade. But guess what? Higher corporate tax rates will likewise hurt trade within the United States. (It's a basic rule of economics that any tax on transactions will have the effect of reducing the total amount of that exchange)

    Now, of course those who oppose tariffs raise the worry over a "trade war" (where the other foreign country puts up its own tariff in response). But here's the thing: The U.S. is running a "trade deficit" with all the countries that it has the most trade with. (That means the U.S. buys much more from them than they buy from the U.S.) This gives the U.S. a lot more leverage and a stronger bargaining position than those other countries have on the U.S. If that trade stops, they will be hurt much more than the economic cost to the U.S.
    And these tariffs are probably mainly going to target those countries that the U.S. is running big trade deficits with.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2024
  2. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Well, for one, tariffs increase prices even when they don't increase revenue, unlike corporate taxes. Also, tariffs ARE corporate taxes. Why should we support your anti-trade policies?
     
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  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you claiming that corporate taxes do not end up increasing prices?

    Maybe you can clarify what you're trying to say.


    Look, when there is a tax on two people involved in a trade, it does not matter whether the tax is on the seller or the buyer. The two are economically equivalent.
    (The seller will just end up modifying the price to adjust)

    A corporate tax would be like a tax on the seller. The business will recoup that increase in expense by raising price.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2024
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  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Did you ever happen to hear Kamala mention laws against "price gouging"? ......-not that it matters now, but your warnings were not realistic.

    Anyway, I do believe Trump will make sure tariffs are imposed, and it will cause HUGE inflation. Get ready for much more income and wealth disparities between the top and the bottom. Most people don't realize the hardship and destruction we are now facing. Buckle up.
     
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  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no doubt that if Trump is able to succeed in getting his policy of tariffs enacted, that it will significantly contribute to inflation (depending of course on how precisely "inflation" is defined or measured) and will result in price increases for many consumer goods.

    But my point was that Kamala's proposed policy of greatly increased corporate tax rates (which the Democrats probably would have supported) would also have resulted in across the board price increases.

    If you want to discuss "price gouging", I think it would be better for you to provide a link to another thread, so we could take the discussion there.

    It's not as simple as many simpleton Leftists assume. I do not think that would actually work to prevent price increases.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2024
  6. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Banned

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    Dems: Corps will pass on the price of tariffs onto customers! The sky is falling!!!
    Also Dems: Corps pay their taxes without passing it onto customers, because... We said so, dammit!!
     
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  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There was a time when it was those on the Democrat side who were the ones speaking against the dangers of foreign outsourcing.

    How quickly the Left has forgotten about the WTO protests in 1999. Leftist anarchists were practically rioting in the streets in Seattle wanting to prevent the U.S. from dropping tariffs.
    Now I guess that has all just been shoved down the memory hole.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2024
  8. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Simpleton right wingers are always willing to spin or redefine issues to their liking. BTW, I wasn't arguing for price controls. I was just saying that Kamala threatened to use them to counter inflation.

    Define inflation however you want. It will mean increasing hardship for most of us.
     
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  9. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Why do you say that?

    BTW, anarchists are more of an agent to the right than to the left. They're frigging NUTZ in addition to being stupid. No government???? REALLY?????
     
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  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And what was the point of saying that?

    You have to be aware that when you say things, it can insinuate other things, and people will automatically make an assumption about what you mean.

    Every anarchist I've ever seen or read about aligns much further to the Left politically. Those anarchists rioting in Portland and Seattle definitely would not be voting for the conservative Republican presidential candidate.

    Are there ironies and paradoxes about that? I'm sure there are, but that would not be relevant to this thread or the point I was trying to make.

    I also have to suspect you already well know all this, but are just trying to disingenuously and somewhat dishonestly put distance between you and them, and deny any connection.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2024
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You mean hardship because Americans cannot afford to buy things made in America.

    Apparently Americans cannot afford things that they themselves make.

    If that is what the situation is, and what the situation has become, you don't see anything wrong with that?

    But you know, that discussion is really departing from my original point. The original point of this thread was only examining the difference between tariffs and corporate taxes, comparing the two.

    You seem to want to argue that tariffs would mean increasing hardship, but would you argue that is not true of corporate taxes?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2024
  12. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Backtrack. You asked "Are you claiming that corporate taxes do not end up increasing prices?"

    I replied that Harris said she had an answer to that and she said it was "price controls". And BTW, no, studies show that corporate taxes do not cause price increases because different corporations have different tax considerations and they must remain competitive.

    And you want ME to account for other people's assumptions. LOL!!! Not to mention that years of experience shows that RWers in particular are quite willing to invent BS and unjustified assumptions in order to corner and trap an "opponent".

    Irrelevant. My point was made. Anarchists offer no viable alternative and they should know it. As much as 100 years ago communists (as far "left" as you can get) published policy papers saying that the manufacturing equipment and factories in general are products of workers' labor and are entirely useful to the working class, and so they should not be destroyed, vandalized, or sabotaged. But in spite of that we find anarchists vandalizing businesses with the hope of drawing socialists and communists into their scheme, while in reality it only gives the police a reason to crack down on ALL leftward organizing. And anarchists were the only ones vandalizing in recent history in Portland and Seattle. That makes anarchists objectively agents of the ruling class by providing a reason for crackdowns in spite of their confused views and contradictions.

    Now you know better.

    No, I said "define inflation however you want". Regarding trump's tariffs, they constitute a sales tax on what Americans buy. The goal is ostensibly to FORCE Americans to buy American, which is a good thing generally but it will give American manufacturers an excuse to jack up prices too. They'll probably claim "shortages" as well for their justification as they did during COVID.

    That's why wage increases should be incentivized by raising the minimum wage significantly. Workers' pay is being kept low as possible for the benefit of corporate profits and the income of the top 1%. The wealth and income gap prove this.

    WTF do you think I complain about in most of my posts? And I just did again!

    I argue that this whole economy is a problem. Are we the richest country? All leading economists and talking heads say yes. And with all the homelessness, the unaffordable housing, the unaffordable health care, the deteriorating infrastructure and education, where is the wealth?

    It's in the corporate profits, the wealth and income of the top 1%, and in the offshore tax havens. AND YET, with all that luxury and wealth being siphoned off for the top 1%, we are still siphoning more to the top, making history with space technology, squeezing by for most people (not counting the homeless) and marketing all manner of frivolous, unnecessary, heavily advertised products to the public. THINK how much better life could be for more people if the wasted excess going to billionaires and corporate wealth and offshore tax havens were to all be available for improving society.

    But you would rather focus on the scare tactics of corporate taxes meaning higher prices without looking at the big picture.

    TAXES ARE NOT TOO HIGH. They are badly allocated in the context of wages that are too low.
     
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