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The Answer To Our Problems, EV's

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by joyce martino, Jul 9, 2022.

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  1. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    AFM, Jan 14, 2024
    #401
  2. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jack Hays, Jan 14, 2024
    #402
  3. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    AFM, Jan 14, 2024
    #403
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  4. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Ya' think?
     
    Pieces of Malarkey, Jan 14, 2024
    #404
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  5. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jack Hays, Jan 16, 2024
    #405
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  6. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jack Hays, Jan 16, 2024
    #406
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  7. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    AFM, Jan 16, 2024
    #407
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  8. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Pieces of Malarkey, Jan 16, 2024
    #408
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  9. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jack Hays, Jan 16, 2024
    #409
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  10. JBG

    JBG Well-Known Member

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    Even the New York Times, hardly a right wing blog picked this up. See Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather. No pay wall on the linked article. Apparently, whether in Norway or Chicago mobility is linked to mild weather. How far do we want to roll back the Industrial Revolution?
     
    JBG, Jan 18, 2024
    #410
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  11. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The consumer is catching on. Biden keeps subsidizing, Kerry keeps complaining about disinformation, but nobody is buying. Your tax dollars at work - but only to subsidize a failed policy. No worries - that's the first time that has ever happened. ;-) This is the one thing that typifies the government - the subsidize the wrong thing.

    This article is behind a paywall.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ford-f-150-lightning-production-electric-vehicles-biden-administration-1c3fc8d0?mod=MorningEditorialReport&mod=djemMER_h#:~:text=None of this,tank for EVs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2024
    AFM, Jan 20, 2024
    #411
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  12. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    I've been wondering about that. Those components are not what we call a renewable source. About as renewable as oil I'm thinking.
     
    CKW, Jan 20, 2024
    #412
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  13. JBG

    JBG Well-Known Member

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    I keep repeating. The purpose is not to preserve the earth. It's control of the masses. They don't like the unwashed flocking to the beach or parks at will..
     
    JBG, Jan 20, 2024
    #413
  14. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's actually to reduce the population of the earth. They collectively think that there are too many people so are attempting to make the cost of living in the western democracies so high that people will not have children. At the root of all progressive policies lies a Malthusian component.
     
    AFM, Jan 20, 2024
    #414
  15. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jack Hays, Jan 26, 2024
    #415
  16. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jack Hays, Jan 30, 2024
    #416
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  17. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    The only gripe I have about this article (and others like it) is it confuses the regulatory drivers for this. Without a whole lot of boring detail, everyone needs to understand that MPGs (Miles Per Gallon) and grams CO2/mile are exact numerical inverses once one does the appropriate unit conversions. Note: yes, that is correct- exact. What this means is that they are the same number. 0 g CO2/mile is infinity MPG.

    Second, there are 2 Federal agencies working here. The first is National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), an agency under DOT (Department of Transportation). NHTSA has had Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations for light duty vehicles since about 1975.

    EPA is the second agency. They were granted the right to regulate CO2 in early 2009 in response to the Massachusetts v. EPA Supreme Court decision in 2007.

    So what's the difference? CAFE standards are enforced after the model year has concluded. Each manufacturer's sales are tallied and their fuel economy averaged. Then the manufacturers are billed if their average is over the standard. When I worked for NHTSA the standards were, to the best of my aging memory, 27.5 mpg for cars and 25 mpg for light trucks. The fines were (again, if memory serves) $5 per vehicle per 10th of an mpg over the standard. This was properly laid out in statute and thanks to the late Congressman John Dingell (D) had been maintained there for several decades. Now you can do your own math to figure out how much the fine would be for a luxury car manufacturer who really didn't care and decided to average 30 mpg. Suffice it to say not enough to matter to matter if folded in to the price of a $120,000 Mercedes. And by the way, that whole stink about a Model Y getting 65 mpg on a dyno (seriously? What part of "EVs don't use fuel" do you guys not get?) translates to 430 mpg that is pretty much useless for promoting EVs. Think about it. The fines largely don't matter in the first place. What's an EV going to do for you no matter how it's rated? And that tends to describe the entire history of CAFE.

    Now on to EPA. EPA before 2009 regulated legitimate pollutants- not a perfectly harmless gas like CO2. EPA certification happens every year. Every vehicle sold must obtain certification before a single vehicle can leave the parking lot of the manufacturing plant. They can't even be loaded onto a rail car on a track that crosses through the plant's property. Nothing.

    And the standards are hard standards- each vehicle must meet X. No averaging allowed. And fines for violating standards are determined by the agency. If I recall, EPA has discretion to levy fines up to and including $22,000 per vehicle per day out of compliance. Having been in this business for 35 years, you've never seen a panic attack quite like finding out from the agency that they've revoked your certification for some reason.

    The technical truth here is very simply that since EPA got into the game, NHTSA is a placeholder. Simply inverting EPA's standards and publishing them. And never having a violation. Some simple math should tell you that with EPA CO2 standards in place, NHTSA's rules are impossible to violate.

    And unlike NHTSA, EPA can just keep lowering the CO2 standard to zero until ICE is gone.

    Now for more comic relief at clueless government's expense, realize that light duty cars and trucks are the only vehicles regulated by EPA as vehicles. Every other class of vehicle (heavy duty, off-road, stationary source, etc.) are regulated on an engine only basis. This is because those vehicles, in the US anyways, are more a conglomeration of individual parts than a coherent vehicle.

    So any bets on why EPA seems to be struggling mightily to come up with ways to regulate out the natural 30% of engine exhaust gases that are CO2 (along with 30% water and 40% Nitrogen)?

    But the article does make a very good point that should be heeded. Centrally planned economies universally suck.
     
    Pieces of Malarkey, Jan 30, 2024
    #417
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  18. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thank you for the informative post.
     
    Jack Hays, Jan 31, 2024
    #418
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  19. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry - a bit off topic but the other always missing part of this entire automobile CAFE standards mess is a benefit vs. harm analysis. It is well documented that light weight vehicles are less safe to drive than heavier vehicles. High gas mileage is achieved in part by reducing the weight of vehicles to reduce their rolling resistance. But lighter cars are less resistant to damage from accidents.
     
    AFM, Jan 31, 2024
    #419
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  20. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jack Hays, Jan 31, 2024
    #420
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  21. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It’s the gift that keeps on giving. I wonder what would happen if cars were stopped and completely backed up on the Golden Gate Bridge and all of the cars were ev’s?
     
    AFM, Jan 31, 2024
    #421
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  22. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Pieces of Malarkey, Feb 8, 2024
    #422
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  23. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Pieces of Malarkey, Feb 9, 2024
    #423
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  24. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jack Hays, Feb 9, 2024
    #424
  25. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    Sunsettommy, Feb 9, 2024
    #425
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