The Bible

#1. Trevor is a disembodied entity on the internet (and so am I) #2. Trevor knows a lot about the Bible (so does the Accuser) #3 over 99% of Trevor's post are on this thread #4 Trevor's post most always repudiate the Bible in general and any statements Christians here make regarding such. My conclusion is.. Trevor may be a demon, demon possessed, it doesn't make a difference, he's doing Satan's work. As such, I no longer will respond to Trevor as it is a sin and very dangerous to communicate directly with demons. May God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost protect us all.

 

That's silly. Exodus is a morality tale not history.

 

That's the strangest get out I've heard.

The real problem is that I have studied the Bible and everything to do with it. ToddWB wishes to accept everything he is told without actually questioning. The 'evidence' for the Hebrews in Egypt has been debated for many decades. Yet no-one has yet even decided when it occurred, or if it did. If you study proven ancient history much of the early part of the Bible is just a story to give the Hebrews a history they didn't have. This is the problem with religionists. They want to believe and are not prepared to accept anything that doesn't fit into their indoctrination. Therefore they go on believing in the impossible in the face of reality.

I ask again:

Why did Terah, Abrahams father, set out for Canaan and end up in Haran. Half way to Haran there was a trade route which would have taken him across country, cutting the journey by over a half.
How did Abraham buy land from the Hittites when they weren't around or ever owned the land around Machpelah?.
How was Sarai so beautiful at 70 years of age that Pharaoh - 700 miles away - could have heard of her. And why would he want her when he had many foreign princesses in his household?
How did Moses call Ur - of the Chaldees? They don't appear until Moses had been dead several hundred years.
Abrahams household numbered around 600 people How did he feed and cloth them all? He had problems when his and Lot's shepherds were fighting over grazing and water. But we never hear about any disputes with the indigenous shepherds. I bet they weren't pleased.
Why go into Egypt? He had to pass through the Judaean hill country and the Negev desert. Then he just made himself look silly while there by giving his wife away.

 

Hopefully Good works follows faith however this is not always the case. Your quote from John contains a bad translation .. a wee bit of "Pious Fraud".

The actual word - for "word" - is "Logos". Logos can mean "word" .. but in a religious context it meant the emissary between man and God.

Jesus was the Logos. The author of John was trying to use language and concepts that were familiar to a Greek audience.

 

Just because someone disagrees or contradicts your dogma - does not mean they are possessed by a demon.

Do you realize that this reaction is very common among those under the influence of sophisticated mind control techniques ? It is referred to as "demonization of the other".

 

The pint I was trying to make is that his post have the same effect as if he was.

 

Yes.. Logos.. has a much deeper meaning than our English "word", and "Word" in the context means the same as logos.
Another translation is "hate" as used when "you shall hate your … and follow me", also in context I know it does not mean "hate" as we understand that word today..

 

You think too much, seriously, the whys and wherefores don't matter to most Fundamentalists one accepts the Bible as is and then let God through His Spirit explain things if they need explaining with the needed understanding. One doesn't need to consider any other sources either the non-Biblical sources are inaccurate due to the plotting and corruption of Satan and of sin so the 'exploration of science' is tainted. Its not that hard to function this way one doesn't need to believe in many science things and it won't impact us I can deny Evolution and the Apparent Age of the Universe and it won't affect most peoples lives what does is faith, their faith family, their faith community and the good things their faith gives them such as hope when there is not much to hope for when I die I can hope for a better life its better than not having that and just poof you're gone forever.

And believing and following the Bible is easy for morality and a common core to build a society around no need to think about things you read the Bible, do what it says, focus on a society with common basic beliefs from it and you tend to eliminate a lot of issues. Its better than men who think they are women and wanting to shower with women and them running about like its normal to most moral decent people.

The facts and such your noting might seem odd or not fit but it doesn't matter what matters is the rooting of society properly and ones family and oneself in the commonality of the Bible and the Judeo-Christian world view to most Christians.

 

Well, well. The Jews would tell you that you have been deceived into believing Jesus was the Son of God. Can you prove them, and me, wrong? For me, Jesus was a Jewish preacher. As he once said, he had come to his own people. He preached Juduaism, lived Judaism, spoke from the OT After a discourse with his disciples they once asked him 'why do you speak in parables'. He answered them 'because you understand them'. Why? Because most of his parables were associated with the OT and the Jews. Even the Beatitudes can be found in the OT. His Baptism, with the exception of additional dove, accords with Jewish beliefs. Water has many cleansing practices in Judaism. Remember Naaman and the Jordan. Remember how many people came to John the Baptist to br Baptised. The story of Jesus temptation fits with Jewish beliefs of the time.In Judaism HaSatan was not the enemy of Jahweh, but his servant. His job was to test mens faith. While the story of Job is merely a religious discussion on why the righteous suffer - and an earlier similar discussion had taken place long before Job was written - Job passed. So did Jesus - if you believe the story.
However you have been indoctrinated I don't know. I was brought up in a Christian home and started Sunday School during WWII. I became a Christian and followed my beliefs, became a preacher and Bible teacher. While studying the Bible I became aware of inconsistencies and obvious errors. I took to studying ancient history, culture, Judaism and the background on which the Bible is written. The more I read the more I realised that while there was much wisdom in this book, it was simply written by man. The nativity stories, the genealogies of Jesus, even the trial and crucifixion stories are dubious. Jesus was certainly crucified - but there is no evidence for the resurrection. Paul makes Jesus divine because of this. (Romans 1) Matthew makes Jesus divine by his miraculous birth. Matthew puts Jesus in Egypt and Luke puts him in Nazareth - at the same time.

What you want to believe is up to you. But you will never change what the Bible actually says.

 

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So you blind your eyes to the truth and believe in fairy stories? Fair enough.

If you don't believe then stop using 'many science things', then see if it impacts on your life.

 

This does not change the fact that you are engaging in thought stopping. Trying to avoid the bad thought through avoidance, denial, and/or demonization of the messenger (the other).

When you take a child and tell that child that if they "question" or "do not believe" the tenets from some holy book or various dogma related to that holy book, then the worst thing the mind can imagine will happen to them - not just torture for a few days but "eternal torture" ... for ever and ever and ever ... this fear gets lodged deep into the subconscious of those that ingest this ideology.

The human mind does not deal well with "eternity" - "for ever" is a scary concept all by itself. The thought of eternal torture for eternity - that is a whole other level of fear. For those that actually believe that they will be horrifically tortured - should they "Question or disbelieve" .. this is life changing.

When the adherent comes across information that conflicts with ingested dogma the fear response is triggered. (often without the adherent knowing what is happening). The adherent will then desperately try to avoid thinking the "bad thought" - as doing so might lead to eternal torture .. the most horrible thing the mind can imagine.

The adherent will then engage in various "Thought Stopping" techniques to avoid thinking about the bad thought. Abject denial, simple avoidance, or demonization of the messenger are common.

This however is just the beginning of sophisticated mind control techniques used on adherents. This can vary dramatically from a normal Church .. to Fundamentalist denominations - be it in Islam or Christianity.. to outright cults.

The thing about some of these sophisticated techniques are that they are "Intended" .. this is the difference between what is referred to as a "destructive cult" and an average Church.

In a destructive cult the leader will try to ramp up the fear factor. The cult leader will teach a black vs white, good vs evil, God vs Devil Paradigm. Cult doctrine is "Good" anything that conflicts with cult doctrine is "Evil" Those who question the faith and/or express ideas contradictory to the faith are "Under the Influence of Satan". "The Other".

The adherents are thus taught what is known as "Demonization of the Other". They will immediately try to cast someone who expresses ideas contrary to doctrine as evil .. or under the influence as evil.

Other "Thought Stopping Techniques" are as follows. I once was having a convo with a Hari Krishna adherent. We were having a nice conversation but I was backing the fellow into a logical corner. All of a sudden this previously calm and reasonable person was dancing around changing "Hari Hari, Rama Rama, Krishna Krishna".

I was astounded - at the time I had no idea what was happening. This was a "thought stopping technique". How I came to study this stuff was due to a close friend of mine being taken in by one of these destructive organizations.

My friend had moved and it had been awhile since I had saw him - although I new he was in this cult - a Christian cult btw. I went to see him and we were discussing the Bible. We were seated across from each other. Again I was backing him into a logical corner - simply using the Bible to refute some of his doctrinal claims.

All of a sudden his face turned white and he went to his knees beside me - grasping my hand and pleading - "Pray with me now.. Pray with me now". I was horrified as I was trying to get him out of this cult. This of course was a "thought stopping" technique and he had been trained to do this.

I then went on to study cult mind control at a college level.

We are not done however. The fear factor is further ramped up by creating an apocalyptic narrative. The world is ending soon and only those who follow cult doctrine will be saved. This creates a sense of urgency. There is a war going on between the principalities .. a war between "Good" and "Evil". A war between God and Satan .. A war for your immortal soul. Horrible things are on the way and you must be prepared. Satan is around every corner trying to trick you ... and so on.

Click onto one of a number of televangelists and you can hear this paradigm.

When it comes to Islam - just combine demonization of the other - such that the person is less human, akin to a demon or under the influence of a demon - with the apocalyptic narrative - where the other Nation is the Satanic force and killing in the name of God is justified.

So then .. when I see someone engaging in demonization of the other - alarm bells go off.

 

I have no idea what the term hate meant - in context. What I do know is that we can not apply a 20th century understanding of religious doctrine to the early first century Christians or the words of Jesus.

The Logos is a prime example. The Logos concept is completely foreign to a modern Christian mentality. "Word" in the context of "Jesus was the "word" does not mean the same as Jesus was the Logos or the Logos was God .. has a very different meaning.

Frankly .. one makes sense and the other does not. When you say "Jesus was the Logos" this means Jesus was the emissary between Man and God = Jesus spoke the true word of GOD through the holy spirit.

The Logos was God = The Logos is Gods word. Jesus is a representation of Gods word . ... he is God's word.

This does not mean that Jesus was God (God the Father). The author of John was not a Trinitarian and nor did the early Christians believe that the first paragraph of John meant that Jesus was God.

The Church debated nature of the divinity of Jesus was debated for 300 years prior to the council of Nicene and 300 years after. Most of the early Christians and the early Church fathers (all prior to Tertullian around 200 AD) believed that Jesus was subordinate to the Father.

When Tertullian espoused something similar to today's trinity doctrine - the Church of the day declared this heresy.

Jesus is not God according to the author of John .. Jesus is subordinate to the Father.

John 14: 28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

People cherry pick individual passages out of context or understanding of a first century perspective.

More John 14

If one understands the Logos idea this passage is clear. Jesus is the Logos - Gods Word - the way and the Truth. Not only does one get to God by following Gods word (the Logos). Jesus has also been given the power to Judge .. "Matt 25 - sheep and goats parable" .. you got to go through Jesus to get through the pearly gates.

If you know Jesus (the Logos - Gods word) you know the Father. Simple. This in no way is saying Jesus "IS" God - The Father.

Gods Word is in Jesus and Jesus is the Logos - Gods word. When you see Jesus you are seeing Gods word an emanation of God (which is almost getting Gnostic)

Everything in this passage makes sense if one knows what the term "Logos" meant to a first century audience. Jesus then clarifies that he is not referring to himself as God (see bold). Jesus is not speaking on the basis of his own authority - it is God doing the work.

Jesus is not depicted as The Father .. "he is going to the Father".

What happens is that a modern Trinitarian believing Christian tries to fit the first paragraph of John into their man made dogma - rather than trying to understand what this meant to author and the people of the day.

24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Again we see Jesus separating himself from the father ... and once again.

John 14: 28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

How more clear could it be ? The Father is above Jesus. The Father I greater than Jesus. Jesus does not speak on his authority .. he speaks on the authority of the the Father "WHO SENT" Jesus.

Jesus does not send GOD .. GOD sends Jesus. Jesus is subordinate to the Father.

 

At first I was not going to respond to this.. I guess your "thought stopping technique really works. The point I was trying to make is I am no longer going to engage the guy.. That's not stopping you from doing so.
I have no idea when the 'end' is coming and believe it is a sin to even live with that in mind. I do believe evil is everywhere and we should be aware of it and avoid it,

 

And was the word, Kaboom?

 

Thank you.. excellent post and cuts to the core of Faith.

 

It is not my thought stopping technique .. it is what adherents do.

Of course there is much evil in the world .. that goes without saying. A whole lot of humans are pretty ugly when it comes right down to it.

If you want to blame God for this - you could do that but, it is not poor Satan's fault. Satan only acts at the behest of God - at least according to the Bible.

I see you seemed to have blocked out the other post where I am discussing scripture and the teachings of Jesus.... a little to hot for ya ? did ya feel the flames a-rising when you were reading !

 

And cuts out reality. Great.

 

The core teaching of their faith is under attack. The Bible has proved not to be the 'inspired' book so leave out the bits that are unpalatable and have faith in the rest.

As regards Satan. We are told that nothing sinful can enter gods presence. Yet apparently Satan did. (Job). You're right. Satan is gods messenger in the OT and Christianity turns him unto gods enemy.

And if TobbWB reads this - I don't believe God or Satan exist..

Yin and Yang. There is good in the world and there is evil and many shades in between. And the same with mans nature. The Church is not exempt. What it has not/does not understand it opposes.

 

Revelation tells us when eaactly when and Jesus told them to flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation. So they did. They fled to Pella.

 

Just finished a series "Chronicles of the Apocalypse" by Brian Godawa, a historical fiction, swords and sandals, which posits that exact thing.

 

Easier, perhaps. More moral? By whose standards?
There are a lot immoral parts to the bible, ever read the OT?

 

Well that's just nonsense. The Protestant reformation relied upon the text of the bible to demonstrate the illegitimacy of the inventions of the Catholic Church. Read Locke's "The Reasonableness of Christianity".

 

Matt 7:21 says nothing about "have faith in Jesus."

 

Wasn't Jesus a Pharisee?