The Chinese have a jet to match F-22

If you want to keep state-of-the-art technology out of Chinese hands, we best not give it to Israel. To give anything like advanced radars to Israel just means that China can skip the entire R&D process.

 

lol....so it can fly. Has it been in multiple multi-national training excercises against expert pilots? That's clearly what I was alluding to.

 

No aircraft can "see" the Type 45, they do not have eyes.

However, the pilots of those aircraft do have eyes, and they can easily see the Type 45.

ANd I honestly do question if you understand any of this. And I am not trying to be patronizing at all, you simply seem to fail to grasp a great many concepts.

For example, do you know how and what ECM is? Once again, the use of any ECM broadcasts the location of the ship like a spotlight, informing everybody within hundreds of miles exactly where she is.

Yea, I tend to think that 98% of those that have never worn a uniform make up 99% of what they say in here. I have seen so much misinformation about so much absolutely basic military stuff that it no longer surprises me. You talk about "A", they pop up with "Square", just because they think they know so much better then anybody else. And then as in this case, Nationalism gets mixed into it all, and the only thing they see is a red cape flapping in front of them cause their nationhood has been insulted.

Oh yes, and here is my proof! China have built a "stealth prototype", and it can fly! Why, that shows you that they are superior! And can do anything better then anybody else?

Yea, big whoop-dee-doo.

They are actually at about the same place the US was in 1977 with Have Blue. They have 1 or 2 prototypes, and this means next week they will have thousands of them screaming down to destroy their enemies.

 

OK, what platform can detect the Type 45 outside of the Asters range?

From Wikipedia:-

So what ECM does the type 45 have?

 

OK, what platform can detect the Type 45 outside of the Asters range?

For simplicity's sake, from Wikipedia:-

... annd heres a datasheet from Thales http://www.thalesgroup.com/Markets/Defence/Documents/Naval_Electronic_Warfare_Solutions/

So what ECM does the type 45 have? How effective is it?

Your buddy said it wasnt tested, I proved otherwise, It flys, so it has therefore been tested.

You mention Have Blue. Of course, J-20 is at the same level as Have blue....!

 

OK, and with this silly claim, you have basically shown that you do not have a single clue about what you are talking about.

According to you, this:



Is equal to this:



Is equal to this:



Please come back when you have a clue about what you are talking about. You do not even seem to be aware of how ECM works. It is just a majic word you throw out. But once a potential target (ship, aircraft, vehicle, etc) starts to emit ECM, it is a double edged sword. Because an enemy knows to a pretty precise area where exactly they are at. And while it confuses things like RADAR tracking weapons, it is useless against those that rely on other forms of tracking, like visual, GPS, or even dumb bombs dropped from aircraft (like Argentina did so well in the Malvinas conflict).

ECM also makes a pretty good hash of the RADAR off it's own vessel. While not as strong of a reaction as that of the enemy, it still clouds the RADAR of it's own forces, and reduces it's effectiveness.

 

Dupplicated

 

Firstly I was not comparing Have Blue to a generic "5th Gen" fighter. Read back and understand I was being sarcastic, Your buddy compared Have Blue to the J-20, not I.

Uhmmmm.... ok.... So.....What is the purpose of ECM? You seem to be saying that its purpose is too make a platform easier for an enemy to neutralise? And you claim I do not know what I am talking about?! ECM is a blanket term for whatever measures a manufacturer may have integrated into its systems. it is not black and white as to what is and is not possible.

Read the Datasheet I provided by Thales earlier. Are you suggesting they are lying?

It is not as simple as " a radar sends out electromagnetic waves and an enemy can see it... blah, blah". It is extremly complex subject and beyond the realm of most Engineers. Do you have a Communications degree?


A few more key points:

1) You keep avoiding this question - What platform can detect the Type 45 outside of the Asters range?

2) As your an expert, what effect does the Ionosphere and Changing Ampplitude have on an enemy being able to detect a vessel? What methods can be used in a ECM system to present decoys to an enemy?

3) The Falklands are not the Malvinas. I assume this was a lame attempt to try to insult me? The Falkland Islands are a small sovereign nation who can choose whatever this wish to be called. Do not try to suggest otherwise - To do so would be ridiclous and to be honest makes you sound like a tool.

 

Well, you at least have an idea.

Generally, ECM is used to fool the RADAR of the enemy. The most common technique is to simply throw up a "wall" of electromagnetic interference as close to the frequency of the enemies RADAR as they can. In this way, the return signals are lost amongst the huge numbers of spurious data in the area. Sometimes it is used in a similar way to create "ghosts", which makes exact targeting hard if not impossible.

However, the very act of turning them on confirms the general area of the target, and actually does nothing to protect against other forms of attack. For example, it does nothing against TV guided bombs, or against laser guided munitions.

There is a difference between targeting and locating. Yes, ECM makes targeting through RADAR controlled munitions almost impossible. But that is not the only weapon in the arsenol. So by reducing or eliminating the threat from one weapon, they have revealed themselves to a dozen others, which are not so affected.

In fact, against one weapon, ECM can actually greatly increase the threat of a weapon impact. And as I have already stated, that is in the case of HARM. A HARM missile (sometimes called an Anti-RADAR missile) does not have it's own radar. In fact, it homes in on the signals being emitted by the RADAR unit of the target. And in this case, the target is emitting a far greater then usual amount of RADAR interference, in the attempt to foil a missile with active RADAR homing. So in defeating one form of tracking, it has opened itself wide open to another.

Think of it as 2 missiles, one tracks with a giant flashlight, and looks for a reflection. That is RADAR guided. In an attempt to foil this, a target iluminates it with an even brighter light, in the attempt to blind it. It also projects false lights in other locations, so the missile does not know for sure where to go (it still picks one, and there is still a chance it will hit the target).

However, if the missile had the equivelent of HARM, all of these tricks mean nothing. It simply aims for that great big bright light on the target. The very presence of the bright lights to try and confuse one class of missiles simply makes it an even larger target to another class of missiles.

And yes, I do know how ECM works. First hand.

Answered before, will answer again.

You do not understand a thing about strategy and tactics. Give me a scenario, and I can show you how to destroy it.

The Type 45 in under stealth, no RADAR on. It will not detect any enemies approaching, since it is effectively blind. However, there is nothing from preventing aircraft with the good old Mark-1 Eyeball from seeing it.

Now we have the Type 45 with it's RADAR on. There is still no need to see it, since the RADAR itself becomes the target. And aircraft can come up all day long, knwoing exactly where the ship is by it's RADAR emissions and fire at it constantly. No need to get within range of the missiles, no need to even see the ship. Just target the RADAR emissions.

This is what you absolutely fail to grasp. YOu seem to think it is the RADAR detecting the ship that is important. It is not, that is rather insignificant.

Please, you are talking about OTH RADAR here. That is the system that China is proposing as part of it's DF-21D project.

I am not a RADAR operator. I never claimed to be. However, I am a PATRIOT missile launching system technician. And I work very closely with our RADAR operators, often times cross-training with them, and talking with them (since everybody likes to "talk shop"). And you are talking about things that do not matter, unless you are trying to claim that the Type 45 can fly.

Please stop trying to impress me with how much you do not know.

OK, so should we all refer to those we fought in 2 World Wars as Deutschland? No more Germany, because that is not it's real name. I really do not care what you call it, if you notice I never attempted to correct you. I simply called it by another name. If such a little thing bothers you, I am sorry. But I do not try to attempt to order you to do anything, so kindly give me the same respect in return.

Have you thought that maybe I just like the original French-Spanish name better? Or maybe I just like to yank your chain, because it is so easy to do?

 

Here, let me throw you a scenario.

A Type 45 is patrolling off the coast of Myopia. Now the Myopians know it is in the area, but it is operating under Stealth. No RADAR at all, only operating visually.

However, this is in the Myopic Sea, a frequent trade and fishing area. Maybe a passing freighter has spotted it and passed word along. Maybe some fisherman in their trawler have seen it and as good citizens passed it along. Maybe Myopia has some good old surplus PBY Catalina aircraft. Any way, it only takes a visual by 1 individual to render all of that stealth as useless. Because now the Myopians have a good idea where this is.

Now I am going to assume there is no state of war at this time, but there is a heightened state of hostility. So Myopia starts to increase it's air presence in the area, trying to find the Type 45. And by now the EM masts on the boat are going crazy with all the RADAR they are picking up in the area. How do they respond?

Well, they can continue to try to operate blind. But that is taking a chance because they can't be sure what all is in the area, and trusting only their stealth to protect them. So they turn on their RADAR.

Now, all stealth is gone. They see every aircraft within a pretty large area, and also a great deal of surface traffic. But now every one of those scouting Myopians knows exactly where they are. Because they do not have to actually detect the ship at all, the ship told them were it is by turning on the RADAR. They simply triangulate the source of the signal, and that is where the ship is. Grade School Geometry simple.

Now assume that they decided to continue to play blindman's bluff. But that is OK, because the MAF has just gotten word that the war starts at 0001, and that in 45 minutes at 0002 it is to attack and take out that ship. And they have an ace up their sleeve.

Unknown to the UK, they have bought a shipment of the Norwegian Naval Strike Missile (NSM). Now this is a really neat missile. The operator simply inputs the suspected GPS location of the target, uploads the visual data of the ship, and lets it go. Now the NSM will fly until it gets to the area, then turn on it's homing. Now this is not with RADAR, it has a thermal infrared with visual imaging camera. It looks for the heat emitted by the ship (it will always be of a different temperature then the water and air), or the silhouette of the ship. The missile doe snot have RADAR, so all the stealth in the world means nothing.

Now let's just say that it misses. No big deal, launch another one. However, the Type 45 now knows it is under attack. What is it's reaction? Continue to try and hide, or go offensive? Continue to try and play invisible, or turn on those RADARS?

Oh, and the NSM, Range of 185+ km. A missile that does not use RADAR at all, only needing to see the ship.

I have told you this I do not know how many times, and you still do not seem (or want) to understand how this works. The Type 45 is pretty blind without it's RADAR. And once that RADAR is on, there is no need to know where the ship itself is, we know that because of the RADAR. And all the stealth in the world is useless.

 

Lots of issues:-

1) Why would the Type 45 be off the coast of Myopia? Why not an Astute Class Sub?

2) If the Type 45 was on a "stealth" mission, why would it be in an area known to be high in commercial traffic?! Its radar would be on.

3) How effective is the ECM on the Type 45? How good is the decoy signals it outputs?

4) What IRST countermeasures are available to the Type 45?

5) Why would Norway sell a missile to Myopia?

6) How sure are you HARM or any other Anti-radiation missile would be able to bypass the Type 45's ECM decoys? Which leads to my previous question of what decoy techniques does the Type 45 employ?

7) How would a American Built Destroyer be in any better position than the Type 45? Remember, you called the Type 45 "woefully inadequate"

How would you simply "triangulate" the position on the Type 45's radar. Its not as simple as you seem to think it is... (!!!!!!!!!!)

9) What about the CIWS and SAM's that could sort out your Video/IRST solution?

10) Assuming a radar tracking were used, In a high traffic fishing area, how would the Myopians differentiate between the Type 45 and a small fishing boat (both have the same radar cross section)

11) are you sure you understand the EECM measures available to the Type 45?! Again read the Thales datasheet...

.. could keep going on...

 

With it's RADAR on, it is about as stealthy as a 747. In other words, not stealthy at all. Everybody for hundreds of miles around will know where it is, to within a few hundred meters.

In this case it does not matter. ECM is primarily designed to interefere with RADAR. This is the very reason why HARM was developed in the first place. As the saying goes, for every defense there is an offense. And this is the case here. Turning on ECM is pretty effective against a conventional RADAR homing missile, like the EXOCET. But it actually makes it easier for a RADAR seeking missile, like the US AGM-66 HARM. This missile was designed to attack the very RADAR and ECM source itself.

None really. IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) is a technology that is useable on aircraft. And a lot of it for example is seen on the B-2, where the ducting of the engine exhaust is given out in the center on top, so that it cools prior to being released into the atmosphere.

They can reduce the heat of their exhaust, but that is about it. There is nothing they can do about the large temperature differences between the surrounding water and air, and the vessel.



This is because you have 2 differing temperatures. The water and air are different temperatures, so there are 2 different backgrounds to contrast it again. Match the water, and there is a massive bulge pointing in the air. Match the air, there is this massive area of differing color on the water.

Why not? They are already in negotiations to sell them to Poland. And this is hardly a unique piece of military equipment. Argentina, Brazil, North Korea, Romania, Russia, and dozens of other countries have made both TV/IR guided missiles, as well as HARM missiles. I more or less picked one at random because it was from another country, and one that has been made available to the open market. But feel free to pick one of the dozens of others if you choose, they all work on the same principals.

The "decoys" are not real. Submarines use "decoys", normally slow moving torpedoes that emit a lot of noise that enemy subs and torpedoes will chase. We also have floating decoys, that resemble large 20 sided dice, which make appealing targets for a RADAR guided missile. These work because most missiles guided by RADAR alone are pretty stupid, and will lock into the largest signal they find. And these are designed to return a big signal.



These are not effective for HARM type missiles, because they ignore them and go directly after the emitter itself. Go back to the spotlight comparison I gave earlier. The missile ignores all the other things the spotlight beam is pointing out, it ignores everything but the spotlight itself. Decoys are to fool RADAR, not the weapons that seek out RADAR emitters.

It would never be trying to go in "stealth" in the first place. And more then likely it is going to be going in with 3-15 other ships of various types. They would not be blacked out, their RADAR would be going non-stop to detect anything in the area.

And they have a missile in the SM3 that can reach out and touch somebody that is 500 km away.

One plane tells a controller the bearing of the signal to his location, another plane at a different angle tells the controller the bearing of the signal from his location. The two signals are plotted on a map, and those are the GPS coordinates input into the missile.

Come on, this is triangulation, and is taught to every Private in boot camp. It is not hard, mystical, or magical. You only have to get the missile into the general area, the onboard seekers will do the rest from there.

I am not saying that the Aster could not bring down a missile. I have made no claims that the missile will hit. You keep trying to change the focus of the debate. And it does not matter, because they do know where the ship is at this point. But the more missiles fired, the greater chance that something will eventually leak through. And if I was Myopia, I would shoot as many missiles as needed for the chance to repeat the HMS Sheffield or the HMS Ardent with the £6.46 billion Type 45. This is an act that would give anybody a lot of pride, and embarass the UK.

How about the fact that they look nothing alike?



That looks nothing like the Type 45.

Which I mentioned before. Remember back, when I said that the ship would know that aircraft are in the area by detecting their own RADAR signals on it's mast? That is what I was talking about. The Thales RESM (RADAR Electronic Support Measures) is basically "sniffing" for any stray electronic information it can in a passive mode. Detecting RADAR, Radio communications, and just about anything else in the area to try and figure out who and what is in the area. Much as a submarine with it's passive SONAR. But if the aircraft is doing a visual search with RADAR off and not sending out any radio signals, then there is nothing to detect.

The Thales system is for dectecting potential threats. And you can send me out to see a million datasheets, that is still not how it works. Once again you are obsessing over the technology, and being totally blind as to how it actually works in a potential combat situation.

 

Like I said, I could go on all day.... I think I may bow out soon....


Basically, You have proved only 1 thing.... that the Type 45 is not "woefully inadequate" and that IgnoranceIsBliss (as you quite rightly say) has no idea what he is talking about.


The fact is, the only thing the American alternative offers is a longer range missile - Something that the Type 45 does not need (we could debate why thats the case all day as well, if you want). Apart from that, the Type 45 is better in pretty much every other way.

 

Oh and consider this WRT your hypothetical situation...


What if the Type 45's owners bought the SHARM (Super Hyper Anti Radiation Missile) from Russia and went around in stealth mode, no radar? It'll be picking off all the aircraft trying to track it all day long.

 

How about not making things up? Do you have a nomenclature of this mythical missile? There are some Russian HARM missiles, yea. Of course, it helps to know what these missiles target.

Kh-31, air to surface missile (in other words it tracks ships and SAM sites, not aircraft)
AS-12, another air to surface missile, it also tracks ships and SAM sites, not aircraft.
AS-11, same, same

In fact, you can go through the entire Russian inventory (and the Soviet before that), and you are not going to find HARM missiles designed to strike airborne targets. In fact, you can go through all of their inventory of all missiles, and you are not going to find any HARM missiles (surface, land or air launched) that are designed to attack airborne HARM targets. Aircraft are simply to fast, and can turn off their RADAR and make a radical turn and loose any missile track. Ships can't do that, so turning off the RADAR simply has the missile use it's alternate tracking (IR, RADAR).

But back to this concept. OK, the Type 45 launches this mythical missile. The aircraft simply turns off it's RADAR and changes course. It can move miles within seconds, so the missile is no longer a threat since it has now lost it's target. And every aircraft in the area now knows where the ship is, since they were able to track the launch and know exactly where the missile came from. All missiles aimed at this target and fire.

Although I am really interested in this Super Hyper Anti Radiation Missile. Do you have a Russian or NATO reporting nomenclature for it? Or did you just make that up as well?

 

OK I was being quite extreme with the hypotheticals(!) but the Russians do have an Anti-Radiation S-75....!?

I concede it is quite extreme thinking!

 

What did I say that was wrong? Where did mushroom say that I had no idea what I was talking about?

 

Actually, they do not.

The S-75 is a relic. This is the missile that shot down Gary Powers in 1962. And they retired them over 16 years ago (although the launchers have been upgraded to support newer missiles, basically solid fuel as opposed to the liquid fuel of the S-75). And this is purely a surface to air missile, with no HARM capability whatsoever.

And no, none of the variants is a HARM missile either.

My friend, you really need to research these things. Because if you have some information that the S-75 is not only still in service but has a HARM warhead, I would love to see it.

Such a missile would have to be modified so heavily (solid fuel, complete guidence system replacement) that it would not even be an S-75 anymore.

 

MLK was a commie puppet whose speeches were written by a typical, nation-wrecking Jewish communist, the head of the CPUSA nonetheless for more than a decade. These are facts that not even the shrewdest of historical manipulators can hide. I will send my kids to private schools just so they don't have to worship this drunk, false prophet negro when they spend a whole year indoctrinating them on the "civil rights" AKA the communist movement in the 1960s.

The stupid thing is that we Americans spend $700 billion a year on defense (more than the next 30 or 40 countries combined) yet we can't do a (*)(*)(*)(*) thing about China's stranglehold on international trade.

If we keep getting screwed up the ass by Chinese imports our country will be rotted from within and defending the worthless hulk formerly known as the USA will be pointless. They will already own us.


.

 

Their jet does look pretty badass - but compared to the F-22 it looks like a piece of junk - for one thing it's huge compared to the F-22 - that right there tells me it must be comparatively low-tech.

 

The size of the J-20 doesn't necessarily mean that it is low tech. Instead the size of the aircraft reflects the environment it is designed to operate in. The chinese, like the US, are actively building their military around a potential conflict with one another that will most likely occur over the straights of taiwan and the south china sea. As this theatre of operation involves large swaths of the pacific ocean the size of the j-20 likely indicates that it is designed to carry large internal fuel stores to give it a significant combat radius. The chinese are not fools as they are well aware that if they can engage unstealthy US tanker aircraft they can effectively deny large swaths of the theatre to US forces. In the event of a conflict with the US, the short ranges of the f-22 and f-35 will make them totally dependant on air-air refueling due to the lack of US bases in the region.

 

That is a nice theory. If you actually paid attention to how the Navy operates, you might understand how it will be a total failure.

To begin with, the "tankers" that operated from aircraft carriers were not your typical tankers. The S-3 Viking was actually an attempt to build a jet fighter that could attack submarines and other surface threats. However this use was really not very effective, so she spent almost all of her time operating as the refueling vehicle for the US Navy. And notice I said "was", the S-6 was retired 6 years ago.

Today, that role is furnished by the F/A-18, most definately not a tanker.

And the tanker before the S-6? The A-6 Intruder. Also not a tanker.

Before the A-6 intruder, we had the A-3 Skywarrior, also not a tanker.

You are making several mistakes here. For one, there would be no F-22s in such an operation. As you point out, it would be a naval operation, with Naval Air. Exactly because there are not many US bases in the area.

However, there are hardly "no US bases" in the area. Japan and South Korea are very close, and Diego Garcia is close enough for penetration missions.

 

The Navy has always relied heavily on USAF Tanker assets. Without USAF assets the ability of the navy to engage in long range strike missions is SERIOUSLY degraded. You don't really believe that the USN relies solely on its organic tanker assets do you? The chinese are most certainly trying to exploit the weak link that is air-air refueling. Thus the development or antiship ballistic missiles that would effectively serve as area denial weapons.

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NL_AFTank_042804,00.html

Any aircraft flying out of Japan or Korea and most certainly Diego Garcia are definetley going to require mo' gas provided by tankers.

 

If the Chinese didn't steal the plans, the Israelis would have given them to the Chinese anyway. With the blessing of the Pentagon.

 

You mean the ballistic missiles that have never even been remotely proven capable of detecting, tracking, penetrating, and hitting a USN carrier fleet? And the same ballistic missile that could easily start a nuclear war by mistake?