The Identity of the Land. Tzafrir Ronen at the Jerusalem Conference speaking on the true identity of the land disputed between Jews and Arabs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MldnIxwUJo
How many generations before a people who live in a land, can claim it as their own? Apparently crap that happened 2,000 years ago trumps what happened in the last few hundred years. Fallacious justifications that ignore current socio/political realities are not a compelling argument. In fact they are lame excuses for aggressive confiscation and annexation.
It's a racist claiming his race owns the real estate and not an other race. And he promotes the idea that Jews ethnic cleansing Arabs is good and needs to be done quickly. It shows what the hell is wrong with that Israeli Jewish community that such a guy gets an open podium to promote racist conquest.
I am sorry I am an early riser and your above words disturb me a lot. The sanctimonious attitude that the truth is with you. What would happen normally when a people is decimated and no longer wanting to confront another holocaust they become like Babylon, Mesopotamia, the Pharaoh, the Incas, the Mayas etc. here the Jewish people has reached 9 million this past Rosh Hashana the same as the population of Sweden... but you see Sweden has no problem with Jews they have a biggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg problem with Muslims. The Swede will not be in control in a decade. Your second attempt at slandering the Jewish State is that the majority of Arabs living in Judea and Samaria are approximately 50 to 55 thousand and the majority cannot prove Land Ownership with a legal document be it from the ottoman Empire or the British Empire. I came to the conclusion in this particular case that yours is an emotional <Faux Scoop> a disingenuous try at defaming the Jews living in their ancestral Land of Judea and Samaria. Take note : Immigrants behind boom in Sweden's population Published: 19 Feb 2014 12:25 GMT+01:00 Facebook Twitter Google+ reddit The population of Sweden saw the biggest yearly increase in 70 years last year, according to new statistics, thanks largely to the almost 120,000 immigrants who arrived throughout the year. Sweden's population on the last day of 2013 was 9,644,864 - a 0.93 percent hike from 2012. The total increase was the largest since 1946, and statisticians at Statistics Sweden (Statistiska centralbyrån - SCB) marked it down to a record-high level of immigration. In total, 115,845 immigrants arrived in Sweden in 2013, many from Syria and Somalia. The figure is the highest Sweden has ever had in a one-year period. The men outnumbered the women by around 5,000. With births, deaths, and emigration also accounted for, Sweden's population increased by almost 89,000 people, 40,519 of whom were women and 48,452 of whom were men. Population growth in Sweden between 1900 and 2013 (Total in red, men in green, and women in purple) The statisticians also revealed that 113,593 children were born in Sweden during 2013, with April 11th being the most popular birthday, with 393 children born on that day.
its pretty absurd to say that the land only belongs to Jews, especially since Jews were the minority in Palestine for a good 1,400 years.
Complete deflection. there is no ancestral land of Judea and samari left unless its is in a few thousand year old book. It is NOW the West Bank, inhabited by a peoples who have lived there for centuries, and they have every legal and moral right to live there. Funny, but I could have sworn there were over 2 million Palestinians living there. The fact that land registration was and still is a bureaucratic clustermuck does not in anyway take away from the facts that these people are ENTITLED to live in the land of THEIR ancestors. I am not defaming Israel nor the Jews. I am defaming neo-Zionist bigots who think by some divine right they can annex land that they have no legal nor moral right to.
the funniest thing is when secular Jews, who don't give a (*)(*)(*)(*) about their religion, claim a divine right to the land.
Once again there is no <West Bank> in history unless of course you meant <the West Bank of the river Seine passing through Paris France>!!! Judea = Jews... Samaria = Samaritan Jews... is the land of the Jews whichever way you want to define it! Judea and Samaria have an approximate 40 to 50,000 Arab living there... In fact there is a tendency by some members of the Knesset to make it part of the country and give the Arab residents living there the opportunity to become Israeli citizens. I am a neo-Zionist... and as a correction a neo-Zionist from the days of my <boyscout> time... If you still think I am a bigot... I shall wear this as a badge of honor on my lapel. I hope the above info has not destroyed your fantasy!
Its true that Jews were a minority in Palestine. The absurdity to me is that they wrote the stories that claim the land was given to them.. and the supposed mandate that they slaughter all the men, women, children and livestock that were not Hebrews.
And what ISIS is doing in Syria and Iraq besides raping and machine gunning the civilians???? In the name of whom pray tell? The absurdity generated here is really contagious. The other day these (someone posted) miscreants were caught on Camera talking they were looking for Yazidi girls with blue eyes to rape and then be shot. You are out of line with your unbalanced rhetoric.
There has been a "West Bank" since 1948. You know the same time that Israel became a nation. Sorry, but the West Bank is not the land of the Jews and hasn't been FOR 2000 years. Using your logic, the native americans should be demanding return of their ancestral home - the ENTIRE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT. You keep spouting this nonsense. What do you call the other 1.950,000 arabs living in the West Bank? Phantoms? the only one possessing a fantasy around here is you. I am a realist and my perspective is informed by as some say "facts on the ground".
Judea and Samaria, or the West Bank have planty of historical Jewish evidences. 2,000 years ago it was the Roman period in this land! the Roman let the Jews to fulfill their religion!! Jews before 2,000 years came to the Mount to pray! the Mount was in Jerusalem, where the Dome of the Rock standing nowadays. For that you have archeaological evidences that took place there. Jews bought a lot of land later on from Arabs in the West Bank, and one evidence for that is what the PLO pubished in eptember 2008, that they have to return all of the Jewish land in the West Bank to the Jews according to international laws. Some of those Jewish lands locate near Qalqiliya, Hebron and so on. With that document the PLO showed that they are violiing international law and yet it seems you are ignoring it. The rest of the Arabs that live in the West Bank but niot in Area C, are under Arab rule, the rest of the Arabs rule themselves so any kind of problem with them you need to point finger on the PLO nad not Isreal. And that's of course after that Isreal is helping the PLO ecoomicly and with electricity, with water and so on. The PLO owe to Israel Billions of Shekels. You say that you are realistic, and I believe you because of our previous disscusion, but yet you are ignoring that before 2,000 Jews live in Judea and Samaria, and from there they were rebelling against the Romans, long before the Arabs came to the Land of Israel. why are you ignoring that historicl fact?
Yes, I would be astounded if there wasn't archeological evidence. I wonder when the Romans are going to get around to re- claim their old empire because the archeological evidence of their ownership is scattered everywhere, INCLUDING Judea and Samaria. I have no trouble with ownership of private property, acquired thru legal transactions. I am well aware of the confiscation of jewish property in 1948 and on. I am also aware that much of that confiscated jewish property in Jerusalem, was then re confiscated by the Israeli government and courts. Ubelieveable. Arab rule? you forgot the word "limited". The PA does not have sovereignty. It has no control over its borders, its air space, its natural resources, a simple right like freedom of unimpeded movement, excise tax collection, etc. etc. etc. As a signatory of the 4th GC, it is Israel's OBLIGATION to the inhabitants living under their belligerent military occupation. A belligerent military occupation as defined by the Israeli Supreme Court. I do not ignore this historical fact. I am reasonably well aware of the history of the region and the roman empire. What I reject is the RELEVANCE of that history 2,000 years later on the contemporary political landscape. Using your logic. I can absolutely definitively prove thru the science of genetics and supporting archeological evidence that my ancestors came from Africa. They possessed the land but were forced out by "the gods" who did not provide the game and fresh water needed said ancestors to survive. Base on this irrefutable evidence, and the fact the land was abandoned thru no fault of my ancestors, I should be within my rights to claim the all of Kenya, or at least the Olduvai Gorge.
And yet the Italian people dont do it. Right, and because of that Jews that own lands in Jerusalem now want it back. For exemple, Har Homa, has been established on Jewish land. Also the Arab neighborhood Shu'afat has been estabished on Jewish land. I didnt forget that word! I well aware of it. The Arabs dont control over al tose things you mentioned because of the killing of Rabin that stopped Oslo to be fulfilled 100%! and let us not forget also that the Second Intifadah didnt allow Oslo do be fullfiled. In some way you need to point finger on Arabs as well. BTW- in Areas A and B the Arabs have the right t move whereever they pleased. Just to pont out- the army barriers in Area B dont change the fact that the Arabs can move whereever they please inside of those areas. This barriers had been agreed on in Oslo by Arafat and Israel. The PLO does collect texs in those areas, like they have the right to vote and the Arabs that live in Area C Isreal give them the full right to vote to the PLO. Israel fullfils what is written in 4th GC, I already showed it to you, why are you ignoring that? But you use history to legitimaze the Arabic existance in the Land of Israel. For exemple,you full aware of the Lewish lands in the West Bank and the need of the Jews to re-claim it back, for that you are using the relevance of history in this but now you are rejecting it? please explain, because I see contrediction by you in this subject. You correct! if you have evidences that soppurt your need to re-claim your ancestral property in Africa so you can do it.
It is a dry and rocky landscape and why anyone would consider it the promised land or worth fighting for is beyond me.
There is not a single case of an Israeli <ZIONIST> raping a Muslim girl in Israel. In fact, some Muslim girls have complained why so, are we not as attractive as your Jewish girls?
This is true. however, it IS important to those in the region and obviously not to europeans. Why is it important to those in the region? Good question. It is perhaps less so now, its become more of a simmering feud but back then, when travel was somewhat restricted in the region, trade routes on land were big business for regular folk. the sinai was the crossroads for the Nile valley civilization and mesopotamia, the two powerhouses of the ancient world. Israel happens to be at the center of this crossing. like istated though, a simmering feud.
so are the Jews trying to? and the Isareli settlements in the West Bank are established on Palestinian land. See how that works? Well at least you acknowledge that Jewish EXTREMISTS opposed peace with the Palestinians to the point they assassinated the one man that would have delivered it. I don't have to point fingers. Facts are facts. NOBODY IS ALL RIGHT NOR ALL WRONG. How marvelously condescending of you. http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_movement_and_access_report_september_2012_english.pdf Fact is EVERYTHING the PA does is by the grace of their occupiers. For some reason you want to justify the fact that the Palestinians remain firmly under the Israeli thumb. Now there are all kinds of reasons for the multi-generational perpetuation of this massive clustermuck, all kinds of excuses, all kinds of blame to be heaped on both sides, BUT THE FACTS ARE STILL THE FACTS AND REALITY IS STILL REALITY. Yes, you "showed me" in a fashion that I perceived to be "magnanimous" instead of legally obligated. Hence my comment. the difference is that some Jews wish to use a two thousand year time scale to justify both their position and Israeli gov't actions. I use the CREATION OF THE MODERN STATE OF ISRAEL to start my time scale. One is ancient and wholly irrelevant, the other contemporary and wholly relevant. Of course I have evidence to support the claim. ME! I guess you can't quite see the irony nor the absurdity.
Israel want to re-claim land that history showed that it was Jewish (history is even after 1948 ). The Israeli settlements in Area C are on Jewish land. For Exemple, Gosh Etzion, that gethered among it a lot of the Israeli settlements that for you are under "Palestinian land", are actually on Jewish land because of the simple fact that the area of Gosh Etzion has been bought by Jewish indevidoals and organiations in the 20th century. It seems you forgot it. I'm well aware of the Jewish extremists that put the rest of the Jews in Israel and in the world a bed name and destroy and help to Delegitimizate Israel by indevidoals and organizations. I'm against them and think they need to be in jail. Of course! nothing is black or white! but of course if you want to blame someone with the fact that the Arabs in Areas A and B didnt get a full rule in that areas so you need to blame the Arabs taht contribute for this thing to happen. I truly believe that even if Rabin wouldnt be killed by extremists Oslo Accords would be fully fullfil even if it wasnt Rabin. Ths second intifadah made Israel to not trust the Arab leaders as Arafat because of it. Thats why Israel did operation Defensive Shield and the status qou remaind. If the Second intifadah wouldnt happen so even the eperation barrier wouldnt be exist. Even the UN wrote: The UN even talk about that the "Palestinians" need to drive in rouths that the arriving time is longer then the rest rouths. Yet the UN didnt wrote something about of that Israel dont let the Arabs move freely. The Arabs need to take longer roads, according to the UN, and this is the perfect exemple that Israel dont let the Arabs move freely, maybe it will take them longer to get to their places, but still they can move freely. In every country and land there is longer rouths then the others, and yet a lot of people use those longer rouths. So basecly according to you, every country dont make their citizens to move freely because of the longer roads. Here about what the UN say about the reducing time to get to Jerusalem by the Arabs: The UN talks about that the seperation barrier make it hard on several of Arab villages to move, and yet the reason of the seperation barrier was becaause of the second intifadah and the raising of Jihadists that came from the West Bank to bomb themselves in Tel aviv, Jerusalem and so on. So basecly if the Arabs wouldnt do that, the seperation barrier wouldnt be existed and the movement of their fallow brothers would be unharmed. Other subject that the UN talks about it that farmers cant go to their land to harvest foods etc. and yet the IDF do let the Arabs go to their lands by opening gates that allow them to do so. I can tell you from parsonal expirence that myself opened a gate to Arab farmers and provided them to work on their land. Thats was part of my work in the West Bank while i was a soldier. I also protected Arabs from Jewish extremists. I protected the Arab farmers. Here what the UN say about the international law and restricting of movemnent in the West Bank: The UN say that the second intifadah created restrictions on the freedom of movemnent in the West Bank: BTW- this doesnt contridact what I wrote to you! yes there is some areas that the Arabs cant move in the West Bank like army areas, areas that the Jews cant go there too. BUT according to the international law, Israel have every right to restrict movemnent to address security needs, which those army areas addressed and continue to. SO in this case Israel is protected by the international law. Here is what the UN say about what happen in this case in 2008 since the second intifadah: In 2008, the security conditions since the second intifadah surely improved, but still didnt been solved, and the attamps of Arabic attack on Israeli cevilians in the West Bank and in Israel continue to take place. For exemple, this year an Arab tried to kill Israeli cevilians in Tel Aviv, and the once who sent him and provided him weapons to do so was Hamas from the West Bank. So even in that case Israel is still protacted by international law!! Improvments that occourd in Nablous by Israeli authorities: So as you can see, even the UN show that the right of movemnent is been implemented by Israel in the West Bank. The PLO does it not by the "grace of their occupiers", but because of Oslo. Of course!! and I gave you and the others here numerous of facts and a picture of the reality, like i provided you in this comment. I gave you already the link from the obligation that Israel must to fullfil in the West Bank, if you want me to give you that once again, i will!! * The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory- Israel does not implement sovereignty over the area A and In area B there is not Israeli civilian rule- which means DONE * Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period - Israel across their history tried to implement a peace treaty with the Arabs according to the West Bank and Gaza but there was always Arab opposition about it, and you could sew it when Olmert seggested to Abu-Mazen the most generous preliminary agreement and Abu-Mazen didnt signed with him, or even whole of the things that Arafat wanted was suggested to him and he didnt want to sign. * The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation.- done, the IDF never interepted the laws that the PA ruled inside of Areas A and B, they only does things that threat Israel's security. * The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety.- the IDF does the exact thing and only takes measures on terrorists, and also of course the Oslo Accords. * To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation- done- Israel sends ingredients either Gaza nor the West Bank and also provide medical care, and in the West Bank if Arab gets hurt the soldiers there give him madical care. * The population in occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupiers armed forces- they dont want and it doesnt happen * Collective or individual forcible transfer of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited- the IDF doesnt do it, maybe it did but no longer. * Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited- Israel is building houses in Area C, but as we all know Area C is under civilian and military rule, so it means that is not an occupeid territory (Oslo Accords)- DONE * Collective punishment is prohibited- the IDF doesnt do it * The taking of hostages is prohibited- the IDF only takes terrorists for investigation, but not as hostage, several hours after the investigation they let the terrorist go- DONE * Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited- Israel doesnt encourage it, on the contrary, Israel is arresting individuals that do it. * The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities- the IDF doesnt do it, and when they did do it it was ok because it was required be military necessity- DONE * Cultural property must be respected- Israel doesnt encourage it, on the contrary, Israel is arresting individuals that do it. * People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charged with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible)- the IDF arrests those who been charged with a specific offence and the IDF puts them on a trial- DONE * Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty- the IDF allows International Red Cross to carry out their humanitarian activities (and I sew it with my own eyes) Source: http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/do...isc/634kfc.htm Israeli use history events to justify thier actions, and those history events are all facts, so basecly Israel using historical facts to justify their actions in Israel, is that wrong to use facts? I dont think so! BTW- the "Palestinians" dont have history in the Land of Israel, but there is an Arab history. And because of it the Arabs have the same rights to live in Isreal as the Jews have, thats why you have today mixed cities in Israel, and today Arabs live with the Jews, no one say diffrentley! BUT this Arab history in this land dont make Hamas to claim that they need to kill the Jews and to throw them back to Europe and to use Hitler's qoutes. The other you mean the Arab side, right? so the Arabs say (not all, of course) that Abraham was Muslim and only the Arabs have the right over the Land of Israel, is that relevent? no! because of the simple fact that this is not from 1948 and on, the time scale you use. Yourself? this is not evidence! if you have the right documents that show that you have peice of land in Africa that belonged to your ancestors so you can claim it! something that the Jews have. BTW- I can notice irony or absurdity. Your claim when you said it that the Jews dont have the right over the West Bank while they do, with documents, even the PLO have an Ottoman documents about the Jewish land in the West Bank, and the document* they published in September 2008 rely on. * The document that show that the PLO need to return the Jewish land in the West Bank to the Jews, under international law.
Nonsense. No race can claim land to be theirs. That is just extrem racist. It is like hearing from a nazi that Germany is their land and not for some Jews. Cmon. Nope. No international law will dictate that some property belongs to 1 specific race. The UN and the UNSC are quiet clear about what the border is of Israel. And international law is clear about Israel expanding their country in occupied territory. It is mentioned in the Geneva Conventions with 1 breath with ethnic cleansing and that is all illegal. The IDF puts plenty of people behind bars with no trial at all indeterminately. Others get convicted with evidence that is get secret for the defense. So the IDF breaches human rights left and right. Besides that they organize that settlers can live on occupied land, and ethnic cleanse = all illegal under international law.
many of them are on stolen Arab land. land confiscated for military purposes, but then used for permanent civilian settlements for Israelis. which violates the Geneva Conventions,
O.k., what is this then?: Israeli soldiers raped and murdered a teenage Bedouin girl in the Negev desert. In the hours after her capture she was forced to shower naked in front of the soldiers before three of them raped her. After the Sabbath meal, the platoon commander, a man called Moshe who had served in the British army during the second world war proposed a vote on what should be done with her. One of the options discussed was to make her work in the outposts kitchen. However, 20 or so of the soldiers present made their vote clear by repeatedly chanting: We want to f***. Moshe then organised a rota for groups of the soldiers to gang rape the girl over the next three days. Moshe and one of his sergeants went first leaving the girl unconscious. Read all here: http://www.iraq-war.ru/article/211266 How do you like that, Mr. Bendor? The story is well known, shouldn't have escaped your sharp mind. But... she was just a goyim. So are the many Palestinian women being raped by Israeli interrogators... http://www.topix.com/forum/world/china/T6I53RLC2A0PQJ834 Makes one wonder how many more are enduring similar treatment. P.S. Thanks, Cubed, for not deleting this post.
I see the continous war as an excuse for that, its just a bizzare fluke of chance that Jews setteled in what was thier ancient state and coincidence that they just happen to pray for exactly that for 2,000 years..... How long does a land belong to a ppl ? for as long as they decide.
