The Purpose Of Philosophy

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by impermanence, Feb 19, 2023.

  1. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Whereas you might learn a few interesting tidbits along The Way, the purpose of philosophy lies in the realization that we cannot [actually] understand anything. What we believe we understand is "close enough" to be somewhat practical and allows us to function reasonably well [at times], but actual understanding is light-years beyond our meager intellectual and perceptual capabilities.

    A current example of this inaccessibility to comprehension would be the ideology of Leftist political thinkers. Although the philosophy of Leftism [each according to their ability...] might appeal to the heart, it results in utter mayhem en praxis. Just the same, the human intellect seems to ignore these inconvenient truths and marches resolutely into the abyss.

    The same applies to [literally] everything else [be it quite subtle in most cases]. So look at philosophy as the conveyance in the Buddhist metaphor of leaving the boat behind once you have crossed the river of knowledge. Beyond knowing is where philosophy must aim least you capsize and get sucked down by the vortex [ego] into nihilistic intellectual purgatory.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2023
  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Source? For someone who argues that we cannot actually understand anything (and perhaps philosophy in particular), this seems like a very certain declaration on a subject which I didn't think was that clear cut.

    I don't particularly expect you to put much stock in the famous Marx quote "The philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." but I would expect an argument about the purpose of philosophy to not just assert what the purpose is.

    I'm struggling a little to see what you're addressing here. What is your "current example" of political thinkers invoking "each according to their ability"?

    There are many versions of "the philosophy of Leftism", or even broader, "the ideology of Leftist political thinkers". Many/some "leftist" approaches only highlight the "inaccessibility to comprehension" in right-wing approaches and some of the mayhem it has brought. That being said, it very much depends on which criticisms of which "leftist" philosophies you're referring to.

    At best, this example seems to muddy the waters by bringing in a bunch of unclarity that doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
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  3. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Me. For this conversation, does it matter what anybody else thinks?

    If one chooses to engage the intellectual, it is imperative that you understand its limitations [which are massive]. Having said that, it's the only game in town, so we do the best we can...

    Actually I am a great fan of his classical economic work and have taken interests in other tangents he drew, but where he went astray is in believing that positive change could emanate from the collective. Almost all great things in history have come from individuals [creativity and compassion] where almost all great tragedy has been the direct result of the collective [power and dehumanization].

    I am writing a thread on an internet site not a PhD thesis. The purpose of the conversations which follow is extension and clarification.
     
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  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I mean, I'm not convinced it matters what you think either. If you had a good source to it, it might at least have shed some light on the logic.

    Sure, but that's not the same as saying that's the purpose.

    Again, this doesn't seem to address what I was saying. My point is that you're lacking a justification for you statement about purpose. There are conflicting views, which highlights that your view doesn't just win on walk over.

    Ok, then clarify why the purpose of philosophy would be "the realization that we cannot understand anything".
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2023
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  5. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Why would it possibly matter [to you] what I think? This is my opinion based on my life experience. If you have delved into the spiritual at all, then you might understand that this is a realm that is thought to lie beyond the intellectual, that is, the non-intellectual, as many would refer to it. Therefore, the purpose of philosophy is in revealing its plethora of contradictions to the degree that it leads some to search beyond the same.

    These are things people need to discover for themselves. Otherwise, there would be as many enlighten people milling about as there are obese.

    When you arrive at the realization that you cannot truly understand anything, it is a great liberation [from believing that you must keep banging your head against the wall because things just don't add up]. After all, it's not what you know that matters, instead, it's what you know you cannot know that makes all the difference [sort of like when you give up trying to understand women :].
     
  6. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    It does when you attempt to attribute thoughts to others that are incorrect. You are assuming what others think, therefore it is important to know what others ACTUALLY think before we start a discussion about it.
     
  7. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    I am not attempting to do anything other than have an interesting conversation with somebody who can actually respond without bringing up all these nonsensical diversions. This is my opinion on this esoteric subject. That's all.

    Whatever happened to just having a fun conversation? Does it really matter who's right [especially when discussing whether you can understand anything!]? How can you ever elicit a creative moment when you can never take a chance?

    And why would I care what anybody else thinks [outside of the conversation itself]. Even if I did know you well, what's it to me what you think about something like this? You people need to lighten-up.

    One more thing :)...we're all on our own journey through life, so perhaps you might want to listen to what another person has experienced before you completely discount everything because it does not dovetail with your parochial narrative.
     
  8. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    You are not trying to have a "fun conversation". You intentionally listed what is, at best, a sweeping over generalization of "Leftism"
     
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  9. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    I can have a fun conversation talking about anything [that's not personal].

    You people need to grow-up and interact like intelligent adults instead of like emotionally challenged children. What is so difficult in speaking about a particular political philosophy? Why do you possibly care what I think?
     
  10. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you care what Leftist philosophy is?
     
  11. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Because it has murdered over 100M innocent people and destroyed countless multiples of lives more.
     
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  12. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    Is this another example of the "fun conversation" you wanted? Accusing people on the left of murdering 100 million people?
    What you are doing is giving the reason why I care what you think. I like to fight lies and dishonesty where ever I see it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2023
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  13. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Are you denying that the USSR and Maoist China were not responsible for these atrocities?
     
  14. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    Because they are/were dictatorships. Authoritarian style government is a RW ideal.
     
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  15. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Well, you might have something well thought out to say, at which point I would very much want to know about it.

    It's not clear to me how it follows from any experience you've had. I have to consider the option that you are simply mistaken.

    I'm willing to think of spirituality as non-intellectual, but I don't see that it follows "therefore" that the purpose of philosophy is what you have written. Why would the purpose of philosophy be to "reveal[] its plethora of contradictions to the degree that it leads some to search beyond the same"?

    I mean, we should always be aware of the limitations of the things we believe or claim to know. Still, it seems to me that many things that matter, we can have a pretty good grasp of.
     
  16. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    It amuses me how people believe they can understand the essence of another person after reading a couple of their posts. It seems to me that it is quite impossible to really know another even after living with them for decades.

    Why would you? Have you delved into the spiritual to any depth?

    Of course many things matter but believing we can have a good grasp of them seems to run counter to most people's experience. Otherwise, life might seem a bit easier to negotiate, no?
     
  17. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Philosophy is a moral framework. Science answers the "what" and "why" questions. Philosophy answers the "should" questions on what to value, what the goals of ones self or society really are to create a meaningful and/or enjoyable existence. A good philosophy, I would argue, does recognize the value of science as a tool to evaluate how things are going, though.
     
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  18. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    This is a fairly traditional view of philosophy and there is certainly nothing wrong with that, but since an exhaustive study generally leaves the searcher unsatisfied, I thought I might expand the scope suggesting that philosophy is merely a step or three on The Path.

    I would take exception to your statement that science answers the "what" and "why" questions, though, as these are unknowable. What science puts out there is the latest and greatest explanations for the what and why, and the majority of information consumers seem quite satisfied.
     
  19. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Not sure what this has to do with my post. I haven't claimed to understand anyone's essence, I have only pointed out some important information that is lacking in your posts. What "life experience" are you referring to, and what about it suggests that your purpose of philosophy isn't a mistake?

    No, I've been trying to get people (who claim to have some kind of spiritual insight) to tell me how I would approach it, but I mostly get evasive answers. On occasion, I have managed to get someone to tell me what their approach is, and it has invariably proven to be approaches with glaring holes, incorrect assumptions and thinly veiled biases.

    That doesn't mean spirituality isn't true, but it does mean I'm going to be suspicious when someone suggests it. Especially when they are unclear about why. So, what approach are you taking to "delving into the spiritual", and how do you tell it apart from simply being wrong?

    I don't think so, I think we just spend more time worrying about the bits that we don't have a grasp of. There are many things we have a good enough grasp of that we navigate them well without even thinking about them. Doesn't mean they're not there.
     
  20. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    QUOTE=["Swensson, post: 1074055269, member: 30924"]No, I've been trying to get people (who claim to have some kind of spiritual insight) to tell me how I would approach it, but I mostly get evasive answers. On occasion, I have managed to get someone to tell me what their approach is, and it has invariably proven to be approaches with glaring holes, incorrect assumptions and thinly veiled biases.[/quote]That's simple. I am have been a serious Zen student for many decades so meditation is my method. It's kind of hard to pick apart meditation [although I witnessed many attempts at such :].

    QUOTE=["Swensson, post: 1074055269, member: 30924"]That doesn't mean spirituality isn't true, but it does mean I'm going to be suspicious when someone suggests it. Especially when they are unclear about why. So, what approach are you taking to "delving into the spiritual", and how do you tell it apart from simply being wrong?[/quote]The problem with knowing is that you get into ideas like "true and false" and all the other dualities. It's about accepting "what it is" without further analysis. Once you eliminate your personal intellectual filter, things are MUCH clearer and you can respond with more accuracy.

    QUOTE=["Swensson, post: 1074055269, member: 30924"]There are many things we have a good enough grasp of that we navigate them well without even thinking about them. Doesn't mean they're not there.[/QUOTE]Driving is a perfect example, something that actively thinking about would cause great harm. All things can be this way.
     
  21. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    I think we should lock Impermanence in a room with a hungry lion and then interview what remains of him afterwards to see if he knows the lion actually exists or not. I suspect that before we even let the Lion into the room, Impermanence will express some extremely certain knowledge about the lion. Or perhaps he has no ability to understand the lion because humans cannot truly know anything.
     
  22. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    I am not questioning existence here, only understanding.

    I believe a discussion of existence might trigger this crowd into all kinds of untoward behavior.
     
  23. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Ok, then how do you know any insights from your meditation aren't simply incorrect? What makes you think it is with more accuracy? Why would this give me insight to anything spiritual?

    For instance, the question central to the topic, which you didn't reply to earlier, what "life experience" are you referring to, and what about it suggests that your purpose of philosophy isn't a mistake?
     
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  24. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Let me explain what Zen meditation is and perhaps it will make sense to you. There are many forms of meditation people do for many reasons. The purpose of Zen [Zen means 'meditation' in Japanese] is to quiet the mind so you can perceive Reality are purely as possible, that is, cutting off as much of your personal intellectual filter. That's all it is. The wisdom derived from this practice is manifest simply in seeing things outside of the duality which creates our intellectual world. It's a matter of seeing things as they are, not as we [hope, wish, etc] they are.

    I am sure you would agree that we are all the sum total of our life experience. Who has the time to explain what has been my life over the past 67 years? For our discussion, I will tell you that I have gone deeply into philosophy and then beyond when I found the intellectual was not answering my questions [the great questions of life and death]. I took to meditation immediately over three decades ago and never looked back.
     
  25. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Sure, but this still doesn't address my question. What makes us think it is more accurate? You've turned off your intellectual filter, but you haven't turned off your subconscious filters, so how does it help? The "intellectual filter" is often used to find flaws in our thoughts, so why would turning them off lead to anything accurate?

    I agree that I don't need anything lengthy about your entire life. I just need the experience that best justifies your view on the purpose of philosophy, and reason to believe it isn't simply mistaken.

    It seems to me, the intellectual (philosophy included) can give us some answers. Sure, when it comes to death etc, it's incomplete and not always clear cut, but it can give us whatever confidence is warranted. Some questions will remain unanswered. I do not see why those unanswered questions give us reason to turn to "beyond".
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2023

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