These preparations are for us?

I am not an extremist or a crazy conspiracy theorist who believes in HARP or such. With that established I will continue.

The Department of Homeland security recently bought 2 Billion bullets. I read several articles on it recently and this number surprises/alarms me. The majority were hollow points. It is said these bullets are for training and target practicing. The problem I find with this is they are hollow points. These are not your standard target bullets. Even under the conditions of wanting real to life combat training this seems a bit overkill.

Also targets were recently bought called "no hesitation targets" these have images such as pregnant women and children on them. The background is faded, so the target is all the more noticed as what it is. This also seems a bit alarming, considering the police in many occasions have already shown they are not afraid to shoot civilians. Why would such targets be needed? Especially of such people as little girls and pregnant women.

Patrick Henry -"Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with these war-like preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled, that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask, gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it?"

So I ask the same question. With the recent use of drones to kill US citizens, buying of so many bullets, the no hesitation targets, and the seeming intent to ban another type of firearm from civilian use, could the government of the US be readying itself for a battle with possible civil unrest or revolution? There are not so many terrorists on this earth for this much weaponry, or is it that the government intends to label the people it chooses as terrorists.

Is this necessary for the defence of our nation and its people? Do you think its for another purpose? If so what? What measures of defense would you consider extreme or necessary, and a multitude of other questions.

 

I gather that isn't exactly true. They've agreed a contract to supply and conveniently none of the reports state over what period of time. DHS certainly doesn't have millions of rounds sitting in a warehouse.

That's because all of those articles were designed to surprise and alarm you. The basic facts, without the omission, exaggeration and misinformation are much more boring.

The rounds are apparently for a mixture of training, practice and live use. I can see them wanting to use the same ammunition in training that they use in the field and large orders of the same ammunition is probably more economical.

These aren't anything new, they've just been tacked on the the story to keep the hype going. It is possible for law enforcement officers to be in a situation where they have a legitimate need to shoot a teenager or even a pregnant woman (or someone dressed as such). Any hesitation could be fatal to themselves or other innocent people. You might not like this situation and there are arguments against this kindof training target but it's got nothing to do with the ridiculous conspiracies it's been tacked on to.

You don't mind drones killing people as long as they're not American?

It could be but then it could be softening the US up for an invasion of space aliens. What you have is lots of wild speculation. There is zero actual evidence of anything untoward behind these events and certainly zero evidence of any specific motive.

If you're interested in speculating though, maybe you should wonder why the people promoting this kind of thing want to turn the population against the government and law enforcement.

 

You are from the UK...*facepalm*

Anyway, on the subject at hand.

I am looking at the plain facts, perhaps they are boring but that is what they are. A part of the government bought 2 billion hollow point rounds. These are not typical training rounds and cost much more, hence they are much less desired as a training round. The government has violated the Constitution multiple times through assassination of US citizens. A part of the government bought targets with pictures of little girls boys and pregnant women pointing guns at you on them, granted with seemingly little hostile intent on their faces. Perhaps for drugged people? Still with little girls and boys that doesn't seem right.

These are simple facts I presented, then I asked questions. You are far to condescending far to quickly.

This is illogical and stupid. With a rising debt, multiple violations of the constitution (enough to make the list of grievances on the declaration look silly), continuous wars, many unsatisfied or angry groups of people, and much more there isn't any reason why they wouldn't be preparing for civil unrest such as the type which would accompany and economic failure, uprisings, and more. Its perfectly reasonable and has happened before in history, unlike space aliens.

 

The Reichstag fire was a false-flag event the Nazis used to gain a majority in Germany's parlaiment during the 1930s.

 

HAARP doesn't exist? What is this then?

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/03files/HAARP_Project_Photo_Gallery_01.html

 

lol, no, I mean I don't believe in HAARP conspiracy theories. Such as that Russia and the US were in weather warfare and all that other stuff which cannot be proven and is by all reasoning is crazy.

 

I wasn't intended to be condescending, I was just expanding on the facts and addressing your questions.

There is always a risk of civil unrest and government will always have measures, people and equipment in place to deal with it, as they should. That really isn't what these reports are implying though. They're implying that there is something special about the current situation, that something out of the ordinary, large scale and wide-spread in imminent. They even sometimes imply that the government (or people controlling it) want that to happen.

Now it is perfectly reasonable to ask questions about individual government policies and actions, indeed that's a good thing, but misrepresenting the facts, jumping to totally unsupported conclusions and lumping together unrelated facts as if they were part of a single policy, as happened with many of the reports that triggered your post, are simply wrong. However neutrally you approach it, propagating those tactics is still wrong.

 

Like I said I am simply looking at the facts. I didn't list any specific report I read. You are assuming this.

A single part of the government has bought 2 billion hollow point rounds claiming they were for target practice. This is a massive number of bullets, bullets which are not made for target practice. The government also recently bought no hesitation target of some of the most harmless civilians in society. Next the government has recently begun killing american citizens with drone strikes, not to mention all the other offenses against out constitution within the past decade or so.

I also believe its perfectly reasonable to question government actions and policy. That being said its what I am doing here. As you mentioned earlier there isn't a direct clear and logical motive for linking these actions together. So I ask questions about them and look up more about current government policy and actions so that I can link that together.

 

I admit am assuming your information came from those reports (directly or indirectly) on it's the basis that you're making exactly the same errors and referring to exactly the same speculative conclusions as those reports.

With this kind of thing, it's best to seek out primary sources;

http://oig.ssa.gov/newsroom/blog/20...responds-concerns-over-ammunition-procurement

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...88a3301e5&tab=core&_cview=0&fb_source=message

So you're jumping to the conclusion that there is a connection (some might say conspiracy)? You're dismissing the possibility that all of these things are totally unrelated events, some good, some bad and most neutral? What is the rational in even looking for a connection between federal agencies with armed officers purchasing ammunition, nationalistic policies surrounding military drones and the never-ending arguments about the constitution (which have been going on much longer than a decade)?

 

Yes, they are.

Run!

 

What is the rational in looking for connections between a federal government without restraint ignoring and destroying its constitution by killing its citizens, then looking at that same government buying billions of bullets (once again not the type you use for target practice), and then buying targets of the most harmless civilians in society? I don't see the point in not doing so. Besides this, ANY army or force of armed men can be used for wrong, so therefore it is only reasonable to question the large purchase of ammunition, and the disregard of the limits placed upon those purchasing the ammunition. E.G. Would you not be worried if your neighbor down the street disobeyed the law and obtained a large quantity of explosives? After having one of the members of his close family blow a building up? Another reason for worry would be found in another Patrick Henry quote.

"Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies?" (naturally replace great britian with US)

Its the duty of citizens to question the governments actions. No government is perfect or immortal. There will always be problems and changes within a government, and they all fall eventually. It is not enough to simply believe the government is perfect or always looking towards its citizens interests.

Another thing you mentioned was the arguments over the constitution. First of all, that is the core document of our country. If you don't respect it you shouldn't bother living here (you don't live here obviously, just pointing out how important this document is). Without the constitution who knows where we would be right now. Its only natural and healthy for the people of our country to debate and argue over the constitution. It refines the way we go about it and holds us together.

Killing a citizens of the US isn't necessarily open for debate though. The 5th amendment is simple in that regard. It gives everyone the right to trial. A hellfire missile is not a trial.

 

So what?

He said many of the same things I would have said, and I am not from the UK.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you have a verifiable and reputable reference to confirm this?

 

How many threads are we gonna get on the same topic, could the Mods please combine them all.

 

This really just needs to be shoved into "Conspiracy Theory" where it really belongs.

 

I don't think so. This is about the defense of the people, that was the purpose stated for buying the ammunition. I want to speculate and bring up other possible uses, and to question the government decision as anyone should on a political forum.

 

Often I find that people from other countries are less likely to understand US problems. More importantly internal problems. Also, the UK trusts its government heart and soul. They aren't as much like the US. Our job as citizens in the US is to question the governments actions and analyze them, to keep and preserve our rights and our nation. Other people only need to worry about their nation.

 

OK, fine. I am an American citizen however.

Still waiting for that verifiable and reputable reference to confirm your claims.

And the word I bolded is exactly why this belongs in "Conspiracy Theory". You have no facts, no proof, just claims and speculation.

Sorry, but I deal in facts, not conspiracy nonsense.

Oh, and BTW, I have found such references, and they vary greatly from your apparent sources in many details. But I am interested to see what you are able to come up with.

 

I agree there are various stories on this, and things are definitely reported differently, but its obvious that it happened.You last sentence basically gives me no reason to give anything. You seem to be fishing for an answer, and probably have something to say about credibility of source an so on. I am not talking or arguing about the source here, and that won't get you or me anywhere. I am talking about the event. The fact is the event happened. E.G. The government bought massive amounts of ammunition (we can get picky about the amount, but again that really won't help, and would probably get unreasonable). Hence I find it perfectly reasonable to question it, and make sure it is put to good use. These aren't fake scenarios and are not conspiracies. It did happen, the ammunition does exist, and I look at all the uses that ammunition could be put to. Not to be rude either, but considering the amount, its logical to assume its not going to be just for shooting terrorists in our country.

 

Actually, it seems to be that you had nothing, continue to have nothing, and will have nothing.

I am not fishing, as much as actually wanting to see something serious about this. I have seen multiple claims of this, 98% from far-right conspiracy nutcase type sites.

However, one of them actually mentioned the word "open", as in it was an "open contract purchase". And that was in an op-ed piece from Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbe...ecurity-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/

Now this is an op-ed, not a serious news article. But look carefully at that one key word, "open".

That means that they have a contract, to provide up to 1.6 billion rounds, during the lifetime of the contract. Not that they are "buying" the ammunition and stockpiling it. And this is nothing special, the Government (and businesses and corporations) do this all the time when purchasing consumables.

For example, if a corporation wants to book a set number of days of hotel stays, they do it under a corporate account. That way the rate is contracted, and even if the hotel raises it's rates, as long as the contract is open they pay the same agreed upon rate. And when buying things from paper and milk to uniforms and vehicles, this is normally done by "open contract" (or "open purchase order").

What you and everybody else seems to fail to comprehend is that this is common practice. There is no way anybody is going to be able to provide that amount of ammunition, nor are they or the DHS going to be able to store that much ammunition.

And 1.6 billion is not as many rounds as you think it is. From working in the S-3 shop a few years ago (Training), I know that my single Battalion went through roughly 400,000 rounds of 5.56mm ammunition every year just for annual qualification. And that does not even cover the large numbers of 5.56mm belted, 9mm, .50 cal, 40mm grenades, and all of the other ordinance we consumed simply as part of our annual required qualification requirements.

And 2 more things to think about. For one, ammunition has a set shelf life. Generally around 10 years. After that passes you gotta basically destroy it.

And finally, you are forgetting one critical part of the DHS. And that is that it incorporates the United States Coast Guard. Is there any question that they burn through large amounts of ammunition every year? Just like the regular military, they go through huge amounts just as part of their annual training and qualification process. Almost 2,000 ships and boats, most of them armed to one degree or another. And almost 42,000 individuals. That alone I am positive amounts for the majority of the ammunition all by itself.

So come back when you have some facts, instead of meaningless WAGs and speculation.

 

As much as you want it I won't give it, because the you are simply wanting for me to post and then generalize it as a far right nut case conspiracy sight, which is not what I am opening myself up to. Its useless name calling. I am not buying it.

Though have finally done exactly what I was wanting people to do, add some meaningful facts or experience of their own to the discussion. E.g.

This paragraph puts a lot of this in perspective, and I am glad you added it to all this. I am still wondering why they ordered hollow points in it all, but now the ammunition number makes more sense.

Another good point about it, if they aren't stick piling it they aren't using it in mass, so its a more reasonable thing for the government to do, and not as questionable. It would also seem less money is being thrown away quite as quickly.

This post is much more of what is needed (cept the last sentence), not meaningless yells of conspiracy.

 

The thing is, this is what you should have been doing yourself. Not throwing around alarmist blurbs and wanting us all to buy into it.

The facts behind this are pretty obvious, and I encourage you to think and examine any such claims critically, and research and analyze them for yourself. I do this frequently, and use this to determine the credibility of the information.

One of the main reasons why I dismiss this entirely is simply because the information is only found in a single op-ed (which appears to be the original source), then in several hundred alarmist and conspiracy filled sites. I have found absolutely nothing to show that it is even a real and accurate report. And the number and types of rounds vary greatly from report to report. 1.2 billion, 1.8 billion, all hollowpoint (which is absolutely ridiculous), and everything in between.

When I find this much nonsense and absolutely no credible articles, I tend to dismiss it out of hand. And when you think about it 1.6 billion rounds is really not all that much at all when talking about military organizations like the Coast Guard.

Heck, their cutters almost all have 1 or more Phalanx CIWS on board, and burns through 5,000 rounds per minute. Most also have the M61 Vulcan 20mm autocannon, with a rate of fire of 6,000 rounds per minute. And many others have the Bofors 57mm cannon at 200 rounds per minute. And add to that the pintle mounted .M2 .50 cal machine guns, shotguns, pistols, M16s and every other weapon they use (and must qualify on and recertify with constantly) and this to me sounds like it could be a 2-5 year expenditure for the Coast Guard alone (not counting replacing ammunition in storage because it is reaching the end of it's storage life).

This is a lot of heavy firepower, that eats up ammunition. And such systems need to be fired regularly, both to ensure it works as well as to keep the personnel trained and proficient in it's use. Most ships have 3 watches, that means 3 crews that need to be trained on each weapon. Being in the military myself, I have a good idea how much ammo we burn just in routine training.

 

I already think critically and analyze things. I didn't name this thread "The government is going to kill all its citizens." did I? I intended this to be an intelligent thread about a genuine worry involving real events. Perhaps the numbers do indeed vary, and I am sorry for that, but the fact remains the government bought a lot of ammunition to be used here at home.

While I agree that everyone should think critically and analyze things, I also find it extremely annoying how many people yell conspiracy on things so quickly. Its not that I am against the military or the homeland security, but its a perfectly legitimate worry when such things get out of hand, and thus we should watch them. when we act as if our government is our friend and loving caretaker, father or mother, then we are most vulnerable to it, and therefore ourselves. Its the illusion of the government being constantly good that is dangerous, and should be avoided.

 

Sorry, but that is not how I see it at all, and not how your thread presents itself. It screams "I am a conspiracy nutcase and the Government is going to oppress/kill/restrict me".

And even now, you give fractured claims. You say you are not "against the military", and at the same time you talk about "genuine worry", and once again talk about "a lot of ammunition to be used at home". Sorry, but the last time I looked, the Coast Guard is concerned about things that are coming into the US from outside the US, and trying to stop it before it gets into the US. And the Border Patrol is looking for things that are just inside our borders, that have managed to cross in and want to stop them before they get in any further.

So sorry, even this post screams "paranoia" and "conspiracy". I guess if they had bought no ammunition at all and stopped all training and certification then you would be screaming that they are not taking threats seriously.

Personally, I do not trust the Government. I think it is bloated, and inefficient and largely wasteful. But I do not see it as some monolithic oppressive entity that wants to take away all of my "rights" and go on a mass killing spree. That kind of thinking I leave to the "New World Order" and other nutcases.

 

Lol, "New World Order". No I don't buy into everything I hear or see. I do see the government as something which has as much potential for good as evil, and thus it is worth being worried about anything it does, and considering those things.

When the government actively can take steps which can harm its people or are harming people, worry is just, and necessary for the continuation of a free people. You act like this is a horrible thing, or I want horrible things to happen. I view serious criticism, justified worries, and questions to be wholesome and good for a nation of free people. Without which it would cease to exist at some point or another, when a tyrant uses such a lax and lazy view as a means to a wrong goal.

 

Wow, you see the Government as something quite different then I do. It seems that you almost see it as a person, able to do great harm or good.

Myself, I see it as a monolithic thing. A symbiotic creature made up of millions of bureaucrats who's only reason for living is to say "No" as often as possible, and to do anything in it's power to protect the little office and cubicle that each member of this symbiotic creature resides in. However, I also am aware that this is a fantasy, because there is no such thing as a "Government".

This is going to go a little esoteric, and off topic I must admit, but see if you can follow along. First, the big "Truth":

There is no such thing as a Government.

There, that is it. There is no such thing as a Government. If you do not believe me, show it to me. Show me "The Government". You can't. You can show me buildings and people and pieces of paper, but that is not the Government. A Government (ours or any other) is all a concept of the mind, and exists purely because enough people believe in that concept and support that concept.

And the moment that less people support that concept then support another concept for Government, then you have Revolution or Civil War. Our country was once fanatically Loyalist. Then within a few decades that changed, and our government followed. In most of Europe it was believed at one time that their rulers led by the will of God, obviously that is no longer the case.

OK, that is what a Government is, simply a group of concepts that a majority of people agree upon and follow. And this is largely held together by bureaucrats, this is the real power behind the system. Presidents come and go, administrations change, entire political parties rise and fall, but what remains the same?

That's right, the bureaucrats. Some of them were at one time idealists who entered service with the idea that they were going to change the world. But most once they get there realize they can't do much of anything, and their entire world starts to become telling as many people as they can "No" (to make others as miserable as they are), and to try and justify their own job so that somebody else gets cut when the department is downsized.

Just look at the VA. It was a mess under Nixon, it was a mess under Carter, it was a mess under Reagan (who made it a Cabinet level post). It has always been a mess, and will always be a mess. Because you can replace the person in charge, and a lot of the Department Heads, and Political Postings, and everything else. That really does change nothing, because it is the bureaucratic mindset that can never be changed.

That peon sitting in the office in Virginia will still be sitting in that office in Virginia when all the heads have rolled for how inefficient the VA is. And that peon will still be doing the absolute minimum that they can get away with, because who wants to work harder then they have to? He or she will stamp form after form, most of the time rejecting them because the person filling it out did not properly attach Form 537 to Form 848A-34, while doing a special dance while turning counter-clockwise during a full moon.

#####

And that my friend is the Government that I see. It is not "Evil", and the last thing it would ever want is to "oppress people" and "take away their rights". Because at that point, a lot of these people would have no choice but to actually work. Largely, I see the government as uncaring because it is to big to care. And it certainly does not want to take anything away from us, because that increases it's own workload. It just plods along by it's own inertia because it does not know how to do anything different.

I mean, come on, how long have we been in a "budget crisis"? 10 years? 20 years? 40 years? And on occasion you see some little temper-tantrum from "The Government" when it is not fed and cared for properly. But to me this is little more then the dog messing on the floor because it is not happy. But then things will be resolved, and continue along as normal until the next time the dog is unhappy and craps the rug again.