Tolerant but not accepting?

Hmmmmmm.... I have an interesting mental block.

If you remember here last month my brother came out, http://www.politicalforum.com/gay-l...t-if-loved-one-told-you-they-were-g-l-bi.html.

So I am suppose that I should say that I am still rampantly in favor of gay rights. Just as much as before my brother came out, which is interesting. However some issues have been risen in my mind. Now there are some small details that impact my judgement on the situation, they have been seeing each other for a few months and are engaged for one (WTF is all I can say to that)..... and some other suspicious things. But I think I like the guy. I am simply skeptical about everything. I like for everything to reconcile and make sense. If it doesn't, then there are issues, and I will verbalize those issues and usually start an argument..... but oh well.

Now to the point of the thread, I don't like seeing my brother and this guy kiss and make out. I don't like walking by the open bedroom door and seeing them embraced on the bed. I would still have issues if it were a woman instead of a man..... however I feel they are simply amplified because I simply cannot relate to the desire to have such physical contact with a man.

Does anyone else experience the same feelings? Anyone else in the same situation?

 

Tell your brother not to be demonstrative unless he's in private.

 

The thought has crossed my mind, but it will just start another argument.

I have been very vocal and upfront with my concerns regarding all of the things that I perceive as massive red flags.

 

You're finally having a moment of normality. Considering how judgmental and condescending you are toward everybody who doesn't support the gay agenda on here, I'm having a hard time not rubbing your face in this.

But I won't. I'll let you sort this out, yourself.

 

I assume you missed the bit where I said that I would still have the same issues if it were a woman. Hmmmmmm?

This application of what I find right, wrong, good, bad, certainly has not lead me to believe the denial of basic civil rights is right or acceptable. So believe me, I will continue to be condescending and dismissive to those who believe that the denial of basic rights is an appropriate answer to a "problem". It is too easy to dismiss and disparage those who are willfully and intentionally ignorant.

 

Does your brother live with you?

You have every right to be accepting without being a "witness".. His conduct is disrespectful.

 

Nope. Twenty years old, supervisor, engaged, living in my parents extra bedroom because moving out would be too difficult.

Again, WTF.

 

If your parents accept his homosexuality, he should move out and not be in your face with them.

 

Yeah, they are fine with it. My dad doesn't care, and my mother is so infatuated and embracing of the idea she is ignoring *major red flags*.

Major red flags.

 

I can relate generally to things you are pointing out. I hope most of all, that you leave channels of communication with your brother open. He's young and has a lot to figure out on his own (mistakes and all).

I would share my concerns, but wouldn't expect full compliance with my wishes. Make certain he knows you care about him; I think that's the best you could do.

Even so, I'd have to respect your concerns, you are (after all) his brother. My brothers would speak up to me, if they saw problems with any of my relationships with others; but always in a respectful and loving manner.

 

Completely understandable.

Look- I can still remember the shock I felt the first time I saw a white guy kissing a black woman- it was a shock and was slightly revolting to me- this was 40 years or so ago. I think nothing of it now. Times, perceptions change.

I live in San Francisco- and even though I am in full support of gay rights, have many gay friends and have watched Monday night football a few times in Castro bars- it took me a long time to get past my uneasiness with men kissing. But on a very intellectual level- why would I care who kisses who?

Now how about this- does it bother you to see women kiss each other? Never did for me and still doesn't. The mind is a wierd place.

I don't know your situation but I would suggest having a beer or two with your brother and open up to him about it all. I doubt he will be shocked and he might temper his displays of public affection, especially if he knows that you intellectually and emotionally love and support him, but you need some adjustment time for everything else.

I bet if your brothers boyfriend sticks around- and is a good guy- within a few years you won't even be thinking twice about their relationship.

 

What red flags?

 

I am certainly trying to keep the lines of communication open, however he is not willing to consider any of my concerns. The biggest one being that he is (*)(*)(*)(*)ing engaged a two months into a relationship. His first relationship. Dear lord I cannot wrap my head around that.

I have been spending time with a young woman for the same amount of time and am just now considering the prospect of dating. Just to draw some contrast in how me and my bro handle such matters. I am just a skeptic and conservative person when it comes to this that I simply cannot understand what or why is going on. Irony, my bro is a conservative, and I'm a market socialist. lol

Meh. <_<

 

Hmmmmmmm.... I suppose my issue is the fact I cannot relate to having a desire for another man. The concept of two women kissing, really not that big of a deal I suppose. However I suppose I can reconcile that with my interest in women..... someone can certainly be attractive straight... bi.... or lesbian.

I am not sure how to bring up that last bit. Our last conversation didn't go that well. <_<
I am not sure if it was the couple of glasses of wine that turned him off.... or the chain smoking when I get stressed. lol I don't like cigarettes.... but if I am stressed..... better hide the pack.

Oh, some very odd things. The rush for engagement, an odd closeness with a friend who has feeling for my bro's fiance'..... a multitude of other things. Just red flags in my mind, things that make me stop and ask "...hmmmmm..... why is this so?" instead of "lalalalalala.... *rose colored glasses*".

 

is your brother's boyfriend a liar, or cheats at business or are we talking young kids here?

Just because they have sex differently than 96% of America doesn't mean you don't concern yourself with the same issues.

Does this guy steal from your parent's home? Does he eat all the food or (*)(*)(*)(*) on the floor missing the toilet all the time?

Judge the person, not the sexual act. After all, the sexual act is the only dfference so don't get hung up on it or allow it to distract you from real issues.

 

I hate seeing loved-ones suffer... for any reason.

Even so, after I've tried reasonably and respectably to bring their attention to something in their lives, I know that is all I can do. After that, I will remain in-place to love them and even cry with them; but would never promise them that I could/would take away the pain or regret caused by their own decisions.

 

Look- you are not the first one who questions his brother- or sisters- rush into an engagement. This happens. But ultimately that is his decision. My suggestion is to realize that it is his decision and let go of that.

It sounds like you two are really very different- regardless of sexual orientation.

Anyway- as someone else somewhat mentioned- if your brothers fiance is not lieing, or cheating, or stealing, or hitting your brother- if he treats your parents politely, is kind to animals and children, isn't trying to borrow money from you, doesn't seem like a drunk or a drug user- then count your blessings.

And think about this: Don't you really want your brother to have a happy love in his life? I know too many people- straight or gay- who go through much of their life searching for that someone. Maybe your brother has found the right guy.

I can say though your relationship will probably be better if you support his decision than if you resist it.

Good luck with it all- and best of luck to your brother- love is a wonderfully dangerous pursuit.

 

I think revulsion is completely natural.

One interesting question is what your perceptions be if it was two women together. Would it be any different?

 

And it would be interesting to see a woman's perspective on the reaction of seeing two men kiss vs seeing two women kiss.

 

Crazy thing, I don't have any issues with that. lol

 

Good points. I certainly do count my blessings..... I have had some less than ideal pursuits. Difference being I wasn't rushing to get married..... meh....

I just don't know.

 

No, it isn't necessarily "natural"; it is most likely a matter of how MOST of us are socially indoctrinated or conditioned.

I kissed girls when I was younger, and not much happened, it was like... "whatever". And as a human being trying to figure out how/why I was "different" than most other males, I thought it was worth a try... seeing if physical intimacy with a woman would turn SOMETHING on that SO MANY other people were so certain should ALREADY be turned-on. But when I kissed a guy I really liked... sparks flew! No comparison whatsoever. It's fascinating to even think about, in light of the things that even in 2011 people tend to assume about homosexuality.

I can see that (even presently in this forum) some people cannot fathom and/or accept that "homosexuals" are merely horny for sex acts... but that they are attracted to certain members of the SAME SEX in the same ways that certain members of the opposite sex are attracted to one another.

From my perspective and simply put, there is more about a guy that I like/want than what's parked or dangling between their legs. Homosexuality not just about 'sex', as so many who DO NOT understand human sexuality often assume or imagine.

I have to admit, that looking at ANY couple kissing intimately seems/feels awkward to me. When I'm kissing a man intimately myself, it isn't about what it 'looks' like, but what I 'feel' for that person when I'm doing it.

I'm gay, but I'm not a woman... so I have no idea what two women kissing might feel, and I'm not straight, so kissing a woman for me is no better (and likely more objectionable) than licking a pane of glass. I was 17 years old and in the midst of tonguing a rather attractive female and touching her breasts, I barely excited at all. The desire just wasn't there, and hasn't been since.

I suppose it seems "natural" to be repulsed or have some aversion to what one may not be able to 'relate' to... but I will not ever agree that such an aversion alone, would justify restricting the rights or liberties of those we might choose to. I was surely conditioned to reject homosexuality, but that didn't stop me from BEING a homosexual.

 

PDA is usually something keep for behind closed doors, you should remind him of this as many are usually disturbed by being forced to share an unwanted intimate moment between two other individuals. I do not like seeing a guy and a girl make out in public any more than I enjoy seeing two men or women doing the same thing.

Your brother should be told about respect for other around him and (no judgment) he needs to get his own place if he can do it financially and stop freeloading. Maybe hint he and his partner should get a place. I have known couples that have moved in with parents, its makes for.... interesting... results.

I do not think it makes you any less tolerant or accepting because of the issues you are having, rather I feel the issues belong with your brother instead.

As for his engagement relative to his age and the length of the relationship someone needs to have a sit down and tell him about the difference between lust and wanting to share a life with someone as they are two totally (and usually incompatible) things. The only thing you can do is offer advice and support during (and possibly after).

Good luck to both of you though

 

Yeah, had a talk with the folks last night...... I shall bring it up to the bro.

Yeah, I have tried talking to him.... he thinks its totally reasonable. Oh well. <_<

 

Here's my buck-fifty (inflation, ya know):

Regarding being uncomfortable when your brother and his fiancé are showing affection:

Have you ever seen an opposite-sex couple kissing and felt repulsed - maybe because they were unattractive, elders, etc.?

The key to understanding this may be to consider why those other situations also make you uncomfortable. I'll give you a nudge, here - it's because when we see others showing affection we may be subconsciously putting ourselves in their place in order to process what we're seeing. Think about where your focus is when you see a handsome man and a beautiful woman kissing in a movie. You probably (whether you realize it or not) put yourself in the place of the man kissing the woman, and not in the place of the woman receiving the man's kiss. Likewise, it's why you might have an "eww" moment if you see two people who disgust you in some way kissing each other.

So if the idea of kissing a guy yourself is disquieting to you, seeing that manifested when your brother kisses his fiancé simply amplifies your discomfort.

There's also the fact that it isn't something most people commonly see. It still has shock value in our society. Once you've been exposed to it repeatedly over time, it will probably cease to bother you.

Anyway, that's my armchair psychological analysis of that situation.

Regarding the idea that they're open show of affection is disrespectful:
On the surface, I would agree - HOWEVER: They're young. They're in love (or at least experiencing limerance). One can be fairly oblivious to the surrounding world in that state of mind. It's not that they're trying to offend you. They may just be too caught up in each other and their relationship to really be aware of how it affects others.

Not saying you should give them a free pass, but maybe you could cut them a little slack. As far as seeing them through the open bedroom door, they ought to have the good sense to close it, but again - maybe lost in the moment. You could close it yourself, and if they protest just make the excuse that you thought perhaps they'd appreciate some privacy. Hopefully they'll take the hint, but no guarantees.

Another thing to consider: when people have felt denied something for a long time, they can sometimes go overboard when it becomes available to them. This applies to everything from the open affection all the way to the fast engagement. There used to be a joke in the gay community about the lightning quick pace of our relationships - mainly because we've not been encouraged to seek stability in them - quite the opposite, in fact.

I can relate to your brother's situation. My husband and I didn't meet until I was in my late 30s and he in his early 40s. We have been joined at the hip practically since our first date (which came less than a week after we first met). If that seems weird, bear in mind that we have a LOT smaller pool of people to choose from, so when we find something good we snap it up before someone else does. So our relationships may move faster. We also don't have the same social barriers that men dating women encounter - we tend to make our own rules for how relationships should evolve. For us, it worked - we've been together 11 years. We went back and forth between each others homes 6 out of 7 days a week for 7 months before my cat forced our hand by getting sick. We could either see less of each other since I'd have to be caring for a sick cat every night, or move in together. My lease was going to be up in a few months anyway, so we took the plunge and moved me in to his house piecemeal (the cat moved immediately). It took another 7 years to get a new home that would be ours together. (several years too many, frankly)

I'm telling you all this not to overshare, but to illustrate that everyone's situations are different. Your brother's relationships aren't going to take the same path as yours. Maybe things will work for your brother as well as they did for my partner and I. But being younger and less experienced, this may be just dress rehearsal for the real thing.

Either way, it's not up to you to determine that or to push them one way or the other. It's their affair, their mistakes to make. Likewise with the housing situation - if your parents are fine with him staying their and they own the home, you need to butt out. They might be trying to compensate him out of a combination of guilt and feeling protective toward him. If so, they'll get over it eventually. Besides, do you want him to move in with this guy and then have it blow up in his face? Are you going to be there for him to help pick up the pieces if that happens?

About the being too close with a third person: Understand that 'out' gay men may be far more affectionate with each other than you'd ever witness between two straight men, even when there's nothing sexual necessarily going on. Since you don't give details, I won't pretend to know if this is all there is to it, or if there's really something going on that should raise valid concerns.

I hope this helps.