Two doctors say that vaccinated people can make unvaccinated people sick

Discussion in 'Viral/Biological' started by Scott, Jun 13, 2021.

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  1. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  2. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    No.

    Experts debunk the COVID-19 claims of Dr. Lee Merritt and the AFLDS (themilsource.com)

    Dr. Lee Merritt’s claims
    Claim 1: The virus is biologically manipulated (i.e., intentionally created) and purposely released. “Coronavirus is a naturally occurring, very benign virus that doesn’t even give most people the cold, but at the most it gives you the common cold. It doesn’t kill you, doesn’t make you very sick but what they’ve done is, [they’ve made it] the transmission device [for a deadly disease].”

    Breyta: Viral genomes are very complex and our understanding of how they work is simply not advanced enough to enable anyone to create one that would accomplish any specific goal. Viruses have been around longer than humans have, and they are very good at changing to take advantage of their environment. Fictional stories on television love to use the “engineered” virus trope because it makes good drama, not because it is realistic.

    Baxter: There is no evidence that the virus is intentionally created. This myth came from the fact that the Chinese virology center studying the previous dangerous coronaviruses SARS and MERS was in Wuhan, a city in China heavily hit by the initial virus. When an animal isn’t too impacted by a virus, they are a natural host to make mutations, as we’re seeing in humans who are immunocompromised giving rise to new variants. Viruses are quite capable of making themselves more adapted to spread and survive without needing humans. As habitats have grown smaller, greater mixing of animals and humans has occurred, resulting in diseases like Ebola, SARS and MERS spreading to humans. The more deadly, the more likely we can stop the spread. SARS-CoV-2 is more dangerous because it is less deadly and slower to spread.

    Claim 2: The coronavirus is the missile, and “the warhead is a little protein that they tacked on that attaches to your ACE2 pathway. Human beings have these ACE2 pathways … and when you put on this hook, what they call this ‘spike protein’, then it gets into these ACE2 pathways, which now is in your heart, in your lungs, in your testicle, in your brain, it can kill you.”

    Breyta: This is indeed how the virus works, it’s how many viruses work. It can indeed kill us, and it can make us sick for a long time. Viruses have been infecting animals this way for millions of years, and they change all the time – it’s up to us to change our behavior to protect ourselves. We have managed to control viruses in the past, we can do it again.

    Baxter: She believes the virus was let out purposely. It’s totally true that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein attaches to ACE2 receptors, just as many viruses including flu have spike proteins. Flu has two different types (hyaluronidase and neuraminidase, from which we get the “H1N1” or “H2N4” nomenclature). What’s interesting about it is that COVID-19 seems to almost exclusively start in the nasopharynx – the sinus passages – which is why loss of smell is so common. The ACE2 receptors are only the ones on the “ciliated epithelium” or the cells with wiggly brushes that move mucous. Rather than going into the bloodstream, it slowly makes copies of itself, with one theory being that breathing the copies in large numbers into the lungs from the nose is how it spreads once it enters through the nose. While ACE2 receptors are all over the body, it seems that it takes a large number of copies of the virus, or “viral load,” to activate the spread outside the upper airway. After it’s widespread, the most deadly part of COVID-19 is the body’s immune response, causing blood clots, dysregulation of glucose and blood pressure, and of course airways that don’t transmit oxygen properly.

    Claim 3: The coronavirus is a highly transmissible, very small particle virus that can’t be prevented by masks or plastic screens. In fact, masks are “damaging us in all sorts of ways.”

    Breyta: The coronavirus is indeed highly transmissible by breathing in the small virus particles, and the technology to filter items of different sizes is very good – we can separate bacteria from water by straining it through fabric and preventing people from getting sick with cholera. Masks are very effective at reducing our chances of inhaling coronavirus and becoming infected. Masks themselves pose far less risk than the virus. Not liking a mask is not the same as being harmed by a mask.

    Baxter: The SARS-CoV-2 virus is between 50–200 nanometers in diameter, but it rides on either respiratory droplets bigger than five microns or aerosols that hover right around that size. Surgical masks filter completely down to about five microns in size, which is why doctors go for N95 masks that are 5x better. However, even double thickness cotton has been found to significantly reduce the amount of particles breathed in. Part of why we know masks work is in places where masking goes up, hospitalizations go down and asymptomatic cases go up. The danger of SARS-CoV-2 is getting a heavy load of virus, which masks dramatically reduce. Masks aren’t damaging at all, even with asthma, as they filter oxygen not at all. Bad breath, unfortunately, can get trapped inside, but that’s about the extent of the risk.

    Claim 4: “[The virus in Wuhan and Lombardy] was probably a first-generation virus, and it did kill a bunch of people initially, but just like almost all viruses, as they passed to the human host, they got weaker. This is just an adaptive advantage, if you’re the Napoleon of viruses and you want to take over the world, you don’t want to kill every host you come across, you’re not going to spread. So what you do is you become less and less deadly, more transmissible, and that’s what this has done over time.”

    Baxter: This in general is true – and why SARS and MERS coronaviruses were easier to stop. However, if there were going to be mutations coming off one immediate deadly one, there should have been a bunch like we’re seeing now, whereas the genetic tracking doesn’t indicate that.

    Breyta: Viruses change in all kinds of ways when they get into humans, there is no predictable pattern of weakening. Sometimes they get stronger, sometimes they get weaker, sometimes they stay the same. This coronavirus has actually stayed the same in terms of the disease it causes, but changes in the genome are happening, and we don’t know what they mean for the future. We need to stay vigilant and take precautions.

    Claim 5: There have been treatments for viruses going back to the 1970s, antimicrobial agents or lysosomotropic agents (hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin). The reason these treatments have been hidden is because of the billion-dollar vaccine industry.

    Breyta: Viruses are incredibly variable and drugs that work for some do not work for all. This is true for the billion-dollar pharmaceutical industry.

    Baxter: This doesn’t make a lick of sense. If there were a cure for the common cold virus, someone would make billions. Pediatricians lose money on vaccines and by far the most lucrative drugs in the pharma industry are those that influence the immune system. Vaccines can be profitable, but in part because they were such money losers, many companies dropped their vaccine programs in just the time period she says. If we had a good antiviral against COVID-19, you’d have heard about it.

    Claim 6: Even without doing anything, COVID-19 has a 99.991% chance of survival, as opposed to a standard flu which is 99.992%. The biggest evidence of how sick you will get from the virus is your vitamin D level. If you take vitamin D, you will be safe.

    Baxter: It’s true that low vitamin D levels are correlated with worse outcomes, but the numbers for COVID-19 deaths and flu are both way out of whack. In contrast, [the US has] had 450,000 deaths from COVID-19, whereas even a bad flu season causes 50K deaths. Looked at another way, deaths from flu are about 0.2-0.5%, whereas deaths from COVID19 are 1-1.5%, not counting long-haul side effects and potential lifelong complications. For example, 19% of those who are hospitalized for COVID-19 develop diabetes, a new finding reported today. The CDC reports death rates every year from flu, this is easy to fact check.

    Breyta: We know that becoming infected with COVID-19 has many negative health impacts other than death, which means that even if you survive, you could be unwell for a very long time. No one knows exactly what will predict how sick you get from COVID-19. The only way to be safe is to not get infected.

    Claim 7: Vaccine makers have designed a piece of the virus’s mRNA to replicate in every cell of your body: the spike protein. That spike protein is actually creating the pathogen in your body. They first tested these types of vaccines on animals, specifically ferrets and cats. They started with other deadly coronaviruses: for SARS, they used cats, and for MERS, they used ferrets. What happened is all the animals died, but they didn’t die of the vaccine, what they died of was called immune enhancement or antibody induced enhancement or antibody dependent enhancement. When they gave cats the SARS mRNA vaccine, instead of killing the virus or weakening it, it encoded the virus on the cat’s DNA. So the virus came into the cat’s body like a Trojan horse unseen by the cat’s own immune system and then it replicated and killed the cat with overwhelming sepsis and cardiac failure. And that happened in the ferrets, that happened every time they’ve tried this, and we have never made it through an animal study successfully for this type of virus. We have never done this in humans before.

    Baxter: It’s true that these are the first approved mRNA vaccines in humans, but there are many successful approved mRNA vaccines for animals. They’re newer technology (meaning 20 years instead of 100), primarily limited by instability, not danger. As far as safety, we now have over 40 million COVID-19 vaccines given in the US and the rate of severe events is 0.2%. Seven cases are still under investigation. In contrast, we have had 450,000 deaths from COVID-19, whereas even a bad flu season causes 50K deaths. These are why mRNA vaccines are exciting: they are not part of an infectious particle, they are degraded by normal cell processes, so they don’t stick around, they can go right into cells, so the dose doesn’t get attacked before it gets into cells, lowering the amount that needs to be given.

    Breyta: Vaccines come in all kinds. Some are killed viruses, some are live but weakened viruses. Some vaccines are not viruses at all, but just a fragment of the virus that we know will teach our immune system to recognize the whole virus if it comes along. mRNA vaccines are this last kind of vaccine. Since some whole virus vaccines like live weakened viruses can change and grow, fragment vaccines are excellent options because they cannot change and grow.

    Claim 8: This vaccine was rolled out to distribution centers before FDA approval. In Nebraska, for instance, it was in the distribution center days before the FDA even said they were going to approve it.

    Baxter: No clue. The data was certainly well known to the Pfizer group prior to approval and they had been asked by the government to make doses ready to go as soon as it was approved. Certainly, no one was going to use the vaccines until they were approved, but if they already sent some out with a “do not use until” I personally don’t care. Supply chains, as we see currently, are a bitch.



    AAPS: A crank medical "association" promotes COVID-19 disinformation - RESPECTFUL INSOLENCE
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  3. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    No they don't.

    The claims made by Dr. Christiane Northrup regarding COVID-19 vaccines in this video are false - FACTLY

    Claim 1: The RNA vaccine will fundamentally change people’s DNA.

    Fact: According to experts, mRNA vaccines do not alter human DNA. Such misinformation is regularly aired on social media to sow doubts/mistrust even before the vaccine is available to the public. Thus, the claim made in the post is FALSE

    The video is a 4-minute clip of the 37-minute long interview with Dr. Christiane Northrup, an obstetrician- gynaecologist who has earlier featured as a health expert on “The Oprah Show”. She claimed that the upcoming COVID-19 vaccine will alter the human DNA. The vaccine henceforth, is set to control our movements has gone viral on social media.

    However, according to experts, “mRNA vaccines work by introducing a messenger RNA molecule into your body, which causes cells to produce a protein that resembles one of the viral proteins that make up SARS-CoV-2. The immune cells then recognize this viral protein and generate an immune response against it, primarily by generating antibodies that recognize the viral protein”. A similar explanation can be found here and here.

    The World Health Organization (WHO) clarified the same on its website that the working principle of vaccination is to stimulate the immune system “with an infectious agent, or components of an infectious agent, modified in such a manner that no harm or disease is caused, but ensuring that when the host is confronted with that infectious agent, the immune system can adequately neutralize it before it causes any ill effect.”

    Claim 2: The toxic metals used in the vaccine will create antennas in the human body that will be detected by 5G technology

    Fact: Multiple conspiracies and speculations have been doing rounds on social media but in fact, 5G technology has nothing to do with COVID-19. Thus, the claim made in the video is FALSE

    While the conspiracy theory on 5G technology is no new news, experts have time and again clarified that 5G is a mobile-network technology and there is no scientific evidence that phone signals will either transmit or reduce our defences to COVID-19. BBC News has also confirmed the same from around the world.

    Claim 3: The non-human DNA will turn humans into chimers.

    Fact: There is no scientific evidence that the mRNA vaccine will introduce non-human/animal DNA into human bodies. Thus, the claim made in the video is FALSE

    Dr. Northrup continues to argue that non-human DNA will be introduced into our bodies which will, in turn, enable humans to pick up certain animal traits. However, by definition, the origin of chimera is in Greek mythology which refers to a single organism composed of cells with more than one distinct DNA. However, there is no evidence that humans will exhibit animal traits

    Claim 4: Vaccine to contain nano particles which in turn act as antennas will collect biometric data that will further be traded for cryptocurrency.

    Fact: While there is a patent application that mentions technology allowing to monitor & track people’s activity in exchange for cryptocurrency, there is no mention of nano particles or implanted chips in the body. Thus, the claim made in the video is FALSE.

    She further accused Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation of using the vaccine as a strategy to collect people’s biometric data for their own profits. Although Microsoft and Bill Gates have filed for patent numbered 060606 for a system which rewards physical activity with cryptocurrency, there is no mention of implanted microchips or nano particles that will collect the biometric data. The patent application has not yet been granted either.


    Claim 5: The patented dye Luciferase produced by MIT will help countries to check on who has been vaccinated

    Fact: In 2019, Massachusetts Institute of Technology did develop a novel way to record patient’s MMR vaccine history using the luciferase enzyme. However, the same has not been approved for COVID-19 vaccine. Thus, making the claim MISLEADING.

    According to Massachusetts Institute of Technology news, they did develop a method to store patient’s data through a dye, invisible to naked eye, that is delivered under the skin through microneedle at the same time as the vaccine. This was developed to devise a method for recording vaccination information in a way that does not require a centralized database or other infrastructure specific to the use of MMR vaccine.

    Further research has shown that both Dr. Northrup and the interviewer Polley Tommey, an autism activist are members of the anti-vaccination community. While Polley Tommey is the producer of the 2016 documentary Vaxxed: From Cover-up to Catastrophe, Dr. Northrup is known to have endorsed the ‘Plandemic’ movie with her nearly half a million Facebook followers. The entire interview has been subsequently removed from YouTube for violating its terms of service.

    To sum it up, the claims made by Dr. Christiane Northrup regarding COVID-19 vaccines in the video are false. Many of those claims do not have any substantial scientific evidence.



    ******************************************************************************************

    The spammer Scott/Cosmored only "believes" alternate crap. He is actually incapable of understanding or reading anything related to debunking the horseshit he always posts. This person is a major part of another pandemic - one of gullible stupidity, whereby ignorant people believe trash and fake news because they think it makes them special in some way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  4. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    I have no medical background so I can't opine on the technical stuff but if Dr. Merritt and Dr. Northrup aren't telling outright lies, what is causing the maladies they describe? The info you posted doesn't address the issue of unvaccinated people getting sick after having been around vaccinated people. I'm not saying I'm sure they're right but I want to see the issue addressed properly.
     
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  5. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    Yet you automatically dismiss EVERY single non woo-woo opinion!!

    They are ignorantly interpreting data and making uninformed leaps of "logic". You don't need to be medically trained to read an understand the claims they have made being explained away!

    They are conflating it and assuming causality.

    Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia

    An incredibly small number and once again they are assuming causality!

    YES YOU ARE!! You ignore where their claims have been shown to be bogus.

    My last post did exactly that and you damn well ignored it!
     
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  6. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "After" doesn't mean "because". People got sick before anyone was vaccinated and there are obviously countless different possible causes for any given symptoms. These doctors are proposing specific causes and it is the logic of those specific claims that is being challenged.
     
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  7. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Of course but there seem to be a lot of coincidences. There's nothing wrong with being suspicious and want to investigate if there seems to be a statistical link. You people are prone to knee-jerk dismissal. That's not the scientific method.

    I just scanned your last post again and I can't see how you addressed it. Link to something in your post that addresses the idea that a vaccinated person can make an unvaccinated person sick.
     
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  8. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What I described is scientific method though. There are assertions of definitive conclusions being presented here and they're being legitimately challenged. Where they're dismissed, it's because all of the relevant facts don't fit them. It is the proponents of these pre-determined conclusions who tend to dismiss any other possible explanation for what is being observed. Seeing "a lot of coincidences" is nothing like enough to reach any kind of conclusion. Human have a tendency to see coincidence where it doesn't exist and even where it does, sometimes coincidence is just coincidence.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
  9. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Luigi Warren, the inventor of the technology that created Moderna, says people can shed the spike protein. Of course Twitter suspended his account.
     
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  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He also said it would be in miniscule amounts that he doesn't think could have any kind of negative impact.

    You can't just say "Vaccinated people can shed spike proteins and therefore being near vaccinated people can make unvaccinated people sick". There are a whole load of gaps to fill in between those two statements before you even have a meaningful hypothesis, let alone anything else.
     
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  11. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Doesn’t prove anything either way.
     
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  12. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True, but that wasn't my point. You only presented half of the relevant information, which completely misrepresented his meaning (apparently Twitter missed it too!). People randomly flinging out partial, twisted and false information is a major part of the problem here and we all have a responsibility to avoid doing it (even inadvertently).
     
  13. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The vaccines are still unapproved by the FDA. That is why the HHS released them with Emergency Use Authorization.
     
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  14. joesnagg

    joesnagg Banned

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    The three magic words SO STUDIOUSLY IGNORED......
     
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  15. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trump got his, course he is not the best person to trust in these things, so I understand some people fears
     
  16. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot of stuff on the internet about this alleged phenomenon.

    Dr. Lawrence Palevsky on spike protein shedding
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?.../search?q=shedding+spike+proteins&FORM=HDRSC3

    https://principia-scientific.com/covid-vaccinated-can-shed-spike-protein-harming-unvaccinated/
    (excerpt)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As the document states, one can be “exposed to [the] study intervention due to environmental exposure,” including “by inhalation or skin contact” with someone involved in the study, or with another who has been exposed in the same way.

    And this, according to AFLDS, can be dangerous. As the issues brief continues, “the spike proteins are pathogenic (‘disease causing’) just like the full virus.” Furthermore, these “spike proteins bind more tightly than the fully intact virus” and thus cases around the world of “pericarditis, shingles, pneumonia, blood clots in the extremities and brain, Bell’s Palsy, vaginal bleeding and miscarriages have been reported in persons who are near persons who have been vaccinated.” Such shedding also “appears to be causing wide variety of autoimmune disease (where the body attacks its own tissue) in some persons.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    https://christiansfortruth.com/conf...hed-spike-proteins-and-harm-the-unvaccinated/

    There are a lot of sites saying this is false news but that might be damage-control by some public-relations agency.
    https://www.bing.com/search?q=shedding+of+the+spike+proteins&FORM=QSRE1

    Here's some info about how the mainstream lies about news, science, and history.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-covid-patients.584669/page-5#post-1072681693
     
  17. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    Which of course you swallow hook line and sinker, because you are so gullible and it's woo-woo.

    And the stock and truly pathetic dismissal because it isn't woo-woo.

    It never occurs to you that you are utterly out of your league and everything you type is just regurgitation of total ignorance.
     
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  18. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  19. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  20. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Lots of stuff on the internet" is not evidence of anything. There are lots of claims and assertions being made in blogs and videos, occasionally linking vaguely related actual science but there is also a lot of misinformation, leaps of assumption and empty scare stories too.

    The assertion here (and it is being presented as a definitive assertion, not a question) is vaccinated people shed spike proteins therefore being near a vaccinated person can definitely make you sick. That is like saying because washing machines use water and can sometimes leak, being near a washing machines means you can drown.

    There are lots of complex and technical questions here that neither you or I will full understand, and that I suspect the clinicians you're quoting don't fully understand either. Raising question and promoting actual research in to these concerns would be perfectly reasonable. Asserting that there definitely is a risk and accusing anyone who challenges that of trying to cover something up is not.
     
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  21. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    What is certain is that the dissenting whistleblowers like McCullough are being censored and bad-mouthed because they speak the truth.

    Brought to the world at Warp Speed, the injections are dangerous drugs, and most likely the spike protein is the weapon.
     
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  22. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you're totally ruling it out. My stand is that I'm not one hundred percent sure but seeing that these people are professionals, they are not to be sneezed at so I'd bet they are right.

    What is your stand? Do you totally rule it out and think it's not worthy of investigation?

    A lot of doctors are taking this seriously because of what they've seen first-hand.
    https://ambassadorlove.wordpress.com/2021/04/28/world-doctors-warning-stay-away-from-the-vaxxed/
    https://ambassadorlove.wordpress.co...-vaxxed-must-be-quarantined-expert-consensus/
    https://www.bing.com/search?q=lee+m...s=n&sk=&cvid=6534EA3C916A494C9108A536C38D06A8
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
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  23. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Take a look at this illustration, cosmored:

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm a professional too, why don't you accept everything I say is right? :cool:

    Rule what out exactly?

    The things you're linking here aren't calling for investigations, they're unilaterally declaring that vaccination is a risk and are demanding action. I'm saying that suspected risks should be investigated but that isn't what is happening here.
     
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  25. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Here's something about conspiracy theorists that Durandal should check out.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-theorists-ever-right.586948/#post-1072565532

    You don't seem to be using the scientific method*.

    They seem to be seeing this phenomenon first-hand. They talk to each other and share experiences. If they're not telling outright lies and all this stuff is really happening, this situation calls for fast action. Anyway, the government and big pharma can't be trusted to investigate themselves. In an enviroment in which the people in power are the ones who seem to be causing the problem, honest doctors have to do it themselves.


    *
    https://www.google.com/search?q=sci...0l3j46j0l5.5382j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
     
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