unwise UN visa ban

Simply put- two occupations were the result of a world war wherein the occupied were the aggressors. Palestine is the victim of unwarranted invasion and belligerent occupation. Further, Palestine is occupied illegally and its occupiers flaunt international, customary and humanitarian law. In short, the occupiers of Germany and Japan were the good guys. Zionism is criminal by default.

 

Menawhile Hamas routinels spits upon international law. But that doesn't matter...cause they ain't Mod edit,,flounder

 

moon, et al,

No joy!

(COMMENT)

First, we were not talking about the "why's" behind the occupation. Simply the ability of the occupied populations to take what they had in a post war environment and make it work for them. Where the Japanese and Germans had virtually nothing, and became something --- the Hostile Arab Palestinians threw away what they had and focused on Jihad and Armed Struggle. Big difference in both mentality and knowledge, skills and abilities.

As for who were/are good guys --- relatively unimportant. We are talking about turning around a country and making it viable and prosperous.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

Don't turn it into comedy, please.

 

Interesting, your concern that internal matters should always be left internal would be legitimate if in fact that had happened in Palestine. It’s curious that you ignore the actual internal history of Palestine in making clear this concern.
It’s curious because, Palestine was continually subject to external interference and re the Jewish vs Arab conflict the British forces had declared a Jewish national home in Palestine, and for some time sheltered, trained and allowed in hundreds of thousands of settlers into Palestine – thus creating the internal conflict you seek to keep internal and making the consequences of the conflict naturally felt by the surrounding neighbours.

Moreover your notion of Arab force multiplier is also curious. The records show that forces in the ensuing war from May 48 were roughly equal as of course, the British had handily crushed all local Palestinian opposition throughout the 30s and 40s.

Leaving aside that the decision on May 48 to declare independence was not in line with Res 181, both British actions in Palestine, Res 181, and the subsequent independence declaration were all contrary to the UN charter –specifically Article one. The clear effort to deny and hinder arab self determination for decades in favour rather of Jewish immigrants who would divide the land in their favour was in clear violation of every tenet of the Charter some time before the intervention of the Arab powers whether or not in the event they really wanted to hold Gaza and the West Bank, thus making your accusation against the arab powers null and void.

Moreover your implication of Jordanian subterfuge in the cause of land holding only highlights the more pernicious problem of Israeli intentions of land holding as the Israelis and the Jordanian king held negotiations over land in the West Bank.

It is indeed important to note that Arab Palestinian insistence that the outcome should be all about them is indeed legitimate…why? Because of their numbers and widespread connection to Palestine. The Jewish presence in Palestine however, had to be forcibly imposed to achieve parity in lands excluding Transjordan, and at no point up to the late 40s did they even own more than 8% of land nor had they built the various structures of the country. No people, country, nation state family of any description has ever accepted this state of affairs and likely never will.

Moreover, re Self determination, the situation is far more dire, in fact the UNSCOP report implicitly acknowledged that self determination would be applied to every arab state except Palestine. the denial of Palestinian independence in order to pursue the goal of establishing a Jewish state constituted a rejection of the right of the Arab majority to self-determination.

Interesting statements, but of course, since the UN proposal entirely favoured the Jewish contingent while denying Arab self determination despite being contrary to international law the Jewish contingent accepted it.

The Arabs however could not as of course, it made no sense. This is demonstrated by the simple fact that the British would not agree to implement the plan if both sides could not accept it and that the UN Palestine Question Sub-committee on legal aspects found the proposal to be nonsense. It noted that the UNSCOP committee accepted that both sides had equally valid claims to Palestine and that this acceptance was not supported by cogent reasoning or the weight of available evidence.

It found that the end of Mandate meant there was no obstacle to the granting of Palestinian independence which would be logical and in agreement with the Covenant of the League of Nations, that the partition was contrary to the charter of the UN and the Gen. assembly had no competence to recommend or enforce any solution other than complete undivided independence and that the settlement of Palestine’s future government would be an internal matter where if there were a dispute it should be brought to the ICJ – which the arab powers had already requested.

Its curious that you tell me about how the people of Israel enjoyed higher standards of living. I would have to note, of course they did – they were given and took a lot of land, including roads, houses and ports that theyd never built themselves. Meanwhile about 700,000 people enjoyed abject poverty and lives destitution, oppression and despair as their farm land and houses and jobs had all been taken from them.
And what do you mean hostile and belligerent Palestinian focused on struggle? The same people who provided cheap labour for the burgeoning Isreali economy? Who over and over gave up their houses and villages freely?

These latter statements seem to betray a base, ignorant and inhumane attitude. Moreover to compare Palestinians with Japanese or Germans is wholly preposterous on a number of different levels….shall I detail it for you?

Yours

Creation

 

In what ways are Japan/ Germany populations similar to the Palestinian refugee population?

Surely if your going down this line, youd like to tell us more.....

 

Good read;

Extract;

Banning the Iranian UN representative is an immature gesture of pique. Somebody put the US government up to it.

 

creation, et al,

The Palestinians are, by far, not a post-conflict population that had it so rough. But they are the most vocal perpetual and virtual victims.

(OBSERVATIONS)

(COMMENT)

Yes, you may be correct. No comparison. The Germans and the Japanese had to overcome much greater post-War obstacles than did the Palestinians. I think the worst case scenario for the Palestinians only involved 0.8 million. Of course my father would turn over in his grave if he were to see me write this. But both the 5 million Japanese and the 6 million Germans deserve credit for the part they played in the reconstruction of there respective nations. And were have even begun to scratch the surface of those that survived inside their devastated homelands and lost nearly all means to support themselves in commerce or agricultural endeavors.

Just My Thought,
R

 

Fascinating contribution. The fascinating bit is how you list some 5 or 6 millions of destitute war ravaged people in either Japan or Germany and miss out all the rest. For example, both J and G are nation states of some 30 million plus each at the time. Both had a long industrial tradition, lives across various different landscapes, had access to all the trade routes of the world and had occupation armies solely interested in their re-development.

You seem to ignore these stark facts as if they dont matter, is it because you have some deep seated prejudice against Palestinians or can you come with other concrete ways in which Palestinians and the Axis powers are similar?

 

sounds like a baseless conspiracy theory.

 

creation, et al,

I apologize.

(COMMENT)

Yes, I figured I was just scratching the surface. Please feel free to improve my numbers.

My point was, that there was much more significant hardships the Japanese and Germans faced, and yet, --- they were able to achieve magnificent accomplishments.

But, I acknowledge your observation and stand corrected.

It is important to remember that had the Arab Palestinian not chosen to opt for war as a means of dispute resolution, they would have received the benefits of help. Don't use that as a crutch. The US keeps the PAL Government funded, and contributes more than most Arab League Nations. And had they chose the path of peace, they would haver received more help than you can possibly imagine.

But, the Arab State of Palestine wis a jihadist state.

Most Respectfully
R

 

They did choose the ' path of peace '. Zionist aggression forced the issue. When the US ceases its blanket support of Israel then it will receive more moral support than you can possibly imagine.

 

you quoted someone's post without stating who made the comment, and without providing the whole quote.

don't do this again.

 

My post relates to the last line of the post above it. It continues the conversation. If any other posts interfere then names and quotations are appropriate.

Now then, if you persist with this juvenile harassment then that's what you'll be reported for- make your choice.

 

Well I understand what you're getting at enjoy reading your viewpoint and hope you would respond to my other post to you.

Its worth nothing that whereas in Japan while they had a high death toll, most retained there homes and they had many many more other people. While there were great disadvantages most of these could be gotten over and were and they also had great advantages.

In regard to the Palestinians this was not the case, they became a refugee population over and over again and then were held as a captive population thereafter. None of this happened to the Axis powers. Excepting to an extent the East Germans, and even they could freely trade with the Communist bloc.

Essentially the Palestinian situation is much much worse than that of the Axis powers.


Its important to also note that the Arab Palestinians did not choose violence, they chose protest, they chose forming political parties, and then they chose violence, and then they were crushed, and then they were offered the choice to divide their lands with the immigrants or face opprobrium and war.

Therefore they no more chose the path of violence than did the South African blacks, the Indians of the Raj, the Jews of Warsaw, the Americans of British America. And no the arab state was not a jihadist state - radical islam is a phenomenon of the latter 20th century. Christian arabs also opposed zionism are were kicked out.

 

Alas another thread destroyed by erudite reasoning and simple facts.

 

creation, et al,

Well, our perceptions are different.

(OBSERVATION)

(COMMENT)

Oh yes! It is quite apparent that --- "the Arab Palestinians did not choose violence, they chose protest."

Yes, no question: "the Arab Palestinians did not choose violence, they chose protest."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

Respectfully no, our perceptions are not different. Our perception is the same, the difference is you are looking at it with one hand over an eye..

You seem to think that all that happens in this area are bombs, and radical statements. You have'nt considered that at all times, going right back to the first world war there were protests in Palestine, these culminated in the formation of political parties who, along with the protests were routinely ignored until, as I said, the Palestinians were given the choice of dividing the land with immigrants or war.

So indeed, as I said, the Arab Palestinians did not choose violence, they chose protest, they chose forming political parties, and then they chose violence, and then they were crushed, and then they were offered the choice to divide their lands with the immigrants or face opprobrium and war.

Therefore they no more chose the path of violence than did the South African blacks, the Indians of the Raj, the Jews of Warsaw, the Americans of British America. And no the arab state was not a jihadist state - radical islam is a phenomenon of the latter 20th century. Christian arabs also opposed zionism are were kicked out.