What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

I can agree with that, Will, but there were expectations of rulers, too - they had to earn the obedience of their subjects by being good and just. If they were evil, they defied what God expected of them, and thus, as Mayhew argued, people had not only a right but an obligation to resist that evil.

 

My problem is that I don't see anything to indicate that this is a view supported by Jesus.

I'm sure we don't have to limit our activities to those that Jesus actually did. But, promoting opposition to government as a calling given us by Jesus or god seems a stretch.

I think this is something that has caused questioning of Paul's approach.

 

Jesus did oppose corrupt authority did he not?

I agree, and there's an ancient axiom of law which still applies today (for the most part) that what is not forbidden is allowed.

While Paul was filling in the gaps a bit with Romans XIII the caveat he makes is an important one. As Thomas Aquinas noted

The order of authority derives from God, as the Apostle says. For this reason, the duty of obedience is, for the Christian, a consequence of this derivation of authority from God, and ceases when that ceases. But, as we have already said, authority may fail to derive from God for two reasons: either because of the way in which authority has been obtained, or in consequence of the use which is made of it.

That would be a stretch, but there are limits to what Paul promoted. As Jonathan Mayhew pointed out, if a ruler is evil and unjust, people are not obligated to obey and participate in that evil and injustice.

I think History makes it clear that we have to be careful about what we read into Romans XIII 1-7. The Divine Right theory that monarchs used to legitimize their absolute unquestioned authority, regardless of how evil and unjust they were, was based on their interpretation of Romans XIII 1-7, and that was the problem that Mayhew addressed in A Discourse - how that passage was abused by corrupt men to tyrannize people. I think it's safe to presume that Jesus and Paul would not have agreed with that, either. What they wanted was for everyone to be good and just, and consistent with the principle of reciprocity (aka the Golden Rule) if someone was good and just they deserved to be treated as such.

 

Uh oh, logic statement broken. I guess God doesn’t get what it wants.

 

Thanks for your post. My take on Romans is different so I had to go back and reread Chapter 1 and 2. What you call "Paulianity" to me fits hand in glove with all of scripture. In Chapter 2 verse 7 Paul describes a different perspective on Salvation. In my own words, I would like to describe Paul's message.

God has made his goodness apparent to all mankind through His Creation. That is embedded in us at birth. We have a choice. Before what Jesus did for us, there were humble, obedient men and women that knew God and in a humble spirit wanted to follow His ways. They were on the road to "eternal life". I suppose there might be some of those around today that haven't heard the Gospel. Time is coming when all will hear the "Good News". New translations are being made available everyday and a lot in audio form. Human Nature is very very deceptive as Paul tells us in Romans "doing things that seem convenient". The Gospel makes it very easy to understand God's Grace. To who much is given, much is required. We who hear the "good news" understand our need to repent and accept the gift. If we don't.....we rebel. We should be concerned that all hear the Gospel, but our personal choice is an individual matter. Trust that God wishes that all would repent and come to Him.

 

We don't see them praising Cain killing Able either! Give me a break. Despicable acts are mentioned in the Bible, what we praise is how God turned them around for good!
So WillRead, would you have Lot terminate his daughters pregnancies as many today would suggest?

 

But the Bible also says that God has personally commanded heinous acts, such as mass infanticide.

 

Well I guess you should bring those to mind and try to find His purpose and see what was accomplished. That always works so much better than trying to judge the Creator.

 

Of course not. NOBODY would suggest that.

Lot's daughters get to make their own decisions.

I think you are forgetting that the direction is to get the government's hands OUT of women's healthcare.

 

.....and ignore the healthcare of the unborn, while at the same time Planned Parenthood claims to help mothers with "pre-natal healthcare" then turn around and terminate them! Whatever makes money, right?

Lot's daughter knew God so apparently they respected life.

 

This does NOT ignore the healthcare of the unborn. That is just plain FALSE.

YOU have NO idea how Lot's daughters made their decision. But, I'd point out that they got Lot DRUNK in order to get pregnant by him. They assumed that their father would not have sex with them unless he was drunk.

They believed their desires were counter to those of Lot.

Thus I would assume that they wanted those kids. They certainly used trickery to get pregnant.

 

I want to sincerely thank you for posting that because I can tell you are trying to help me.

However I have been, for many decades, fully committed to the traditional orthodox Reformed
doctrine of the Inspiration and Authority of the Holy Scriptures as they appear in the various
Protestant translations of the Bible -- and let me be honest -- I am 100% locked down on my
commitment to this doctrine (See 2 Timothy 3:13-17)

What does this mean?

It means that I must find reasonable solutions to the seeming dilemmas presented by the texts of
the New Testament (and entire Bible). My OP offers a reasonable possibility how Akua Adisa can
be saved. And that is all I need.

The Sovereign God has made a way (see the OP and follow-up posts) for those who have never
heard the gospel to be saved:

This has to be correct otherwise we are living in true lunatic universe.

The notion that God will "throw" ie FORCE

(Jesus said He was going to send out His angels and that they would round
up the wicked and THROW them into Hell)

tens of billions of His creatures into an eternal Hell who worldwide history wide
have never heard one word of the gospel message is pure lunacy.

And the OP establishes a reasonable solution to this dilemma. The OP does in
fact establish the possibility that Akua Adisa can be saved.

And we can still hold firmly to John 14:6

_______________________


In addition to the above, the Christian Church can remain 100% orthodox and at the
same time NOT believe in the notion that Hell is Eternal Conscious agony. How so?
Well, John 3:16's perish means exactly that and Romans 6:23"s death means exactly
that.

↓





Best

JAG

[]

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. God bless.

I would like for you to have Eternal Life. That means when you die physically
that you do not really die -- but that you will be given the gift of Eternal Life.

You only get this gift one way and that one way is to believe in the Lord Jesus
as your Savior:

This is about 60 seconds but its powerful.



Then look at John chapter 11

21“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother
would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you
whatever you ask.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in
me will live, even though they die;26and whoever lives by believing in me will
never die. Do you believe this?”

Best

JAG

[]

 

So, God's plan for his chosen people was to come to Earth, invalidate their belief in God, and leave them to Hell?

This seems a little harsh!

 

But you believe God was the author of all that?.....or was it derived from human nature as I suppose. I know the story....and as I said before Cain killed Abel. Was that God's desire?

 

We are all eternal beings, though from our perspective here in 4 dimensional space (though some would say time is not actually a dimension), we can't even grasp what that means as our puny 80-yearish lifespans is nothing compared to even geological time on our homeworld, much less real long term spans like from the Big Bang until now. We look at a decade or two and think, man, that is a long time, but it's a flea fart in a Category V hurricane. For most of us this is not our first rodeo (life experience), nor will it be our last, though not necessarily as a homo sapiens sapiens or even necessarily on this space rock.

We are not separate from Source, at least not in our real, non-physical forms, we are actually part of it, and it collectively is us. There is no need for us to worship ourselves, and all paths ultimately lead to the same place. You should find that to be good news, but since it allows people to do things like simply being gay without burning in hell for all of eternity, you probably don't.

 

I don't quite understand your point here, and I don't want to make guesses that would likely misrepresent you.

I would suggest that Cain's murder is not acceptable by any philosophy of which I'm aware - philosophy in the Bible or from any other source, religious or not.

 

My point would be this, do you suppose Cain killing Able was something that God willed or was it a choice of mankind? I compare that with Lot's daughters. The fact they got their father drunk and slept with him I believe was done out of their own fear, not God's desire. A lot of bad things are recorded in the Bible and it doesn't mean it is God's doing. Mankind screws up and God turns it around for good.

 

Knew a kid in high school who was pretty religious, came from a religious family, and his dad was a pastor(the kid is a pastor now as an adult too).

One day at lunch I asked him essentially this very same question. He said those people would go to hell. Now, that was probably 8th grade so I'm not going to hold that answer as gospel(snicker snicker), but it does show that the mindset exists out there that people who may have never even heard of your version of God will suffer eternal damnation regardless.

The idea has a couple layers. On the surface, it means there is a vengeful God out there who doesn't even care if a person has had a chance to accept Christ. Digging deeper, you realize if God created everything and all the souls and ****, it means he added a bunch of people on Earth whom he knew would not be taught Christianity. But, since part of the calling of religion is to spread that religion to those who haven't come to Jesus yet, it really means he populated the Earth with people whose sole reason for existing is for other Christians to convert them as part of their life and religious mission. It's like when you play a video game and you get a quest where you have to go kill a bunch of goblins or bandits or something. The game makers just invent those bad guys and populate the game world with them so that the good guy in the game(you) has something to do.

 

I find your analysis to be very self-minded. Instead, try to look at it in a different way. We are all of the same Father who loves us so much he gave us real liberty at birth. Those of us who choose to know Him can speak of His goodness and others can change their direction of their own accord or continue on in the direction they find most convenient. It's that simple. Personally I will speak of His goodness. Those who don't hear of His goodness can see His goodness in His creation. As those who passed before Christ, they can be "justified by faith". It is spoken of in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is the most specific but the whole Book is worthwhile. An individual can look into it for himself or he can continue on an aimless path of trying to be "justified by mankind". Some do it by looking to a Priest, some do it by looking to a professor or pundit.

 

I was taught that Cain slew Able out of jealousy because his offering was rejected by god. God, being an obligate carnivore, required animal flesh but Cain, a rabid vegan, was bringing organic produce. It was Cain’s jealousy that caused the murder but God has been using it ever since to tell people that they can’t just worship him in their own way, they have to do it his way. So even if not caused by god, the murder has been exploited by god as a moral parable ever since.

 

Interesting. One more parable on how it is God's way or hell.

 

It was only Cain's attitude, like others today who accuse God, that brought disapproval.

 

Now in your earthly wisdom, would you explain who, if any in this passage went to hell?

 

Matthew 25:31-end is a report of what Jesus told his followers.

He stated that HIS FOLLOWERS must walk the walk - searching poor houses, prisons, and hospitals to find people's needs and working to provide for them.

He specified that HIS FOLLOWERS would go to hell alongside Satan if they fail in this duty.