What Is "Knowing?"

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by impermanence, Sep 23, 2023.

  1. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Intellectually, there are only a couple of ways we need to "know," and those are imposed from without...that is, if you wish to successfully exist in society, then you must adhere to a legal [and moral] framework. You need to understand [or know] what is expected of you.

    Beyond the rules and regulations that guide our social existence, functioning at a high level requires our knowing to transcend the ordinary [simply by allowing ourselves to observe without interpretation].

    Observing in this manner allows the individual to perceive things as close to the truth as is possible. If you choose to return to ordinary knowing, then you will have taken what you observe and transposed it into your personal interpretation [and this is where people go astray]. What we observe is simply too complex to interpret with any accuracy.

    In this higher order mode, what your mind will glean from observation-only is considerably more valuable because you have left out your personal biases [which are based on incomplete information and faulty reasoning]. Intellectually, it is these errors that make us "human."

    For example...let's say we are observing that many American inner cities are experiencing dramatic increases in violent criminal behavior. Using observation-only, we can look at this issue statistically and understand what we are dealing with numbers-wise. Then policy can be made to address the immediate issues, initially, then medium and long term solutions can be explored.

    If we approach the same problem with biases riding shotgun, then we make what we observe dovetail with these preconceived notions resulting in solutions often failing to address the etiological basis of the problems. We see this in the inner cities as criminals are not being held accountable by politicians and those in authority positions within law enforcement [thereby encouraging lawlessness].

    This faulty reasoning is at its most egregious as biases become more and more ideological. We see this in the political, the religious, and any other sphere that demands strict adherence to core beliefs despite compelling evidence to the contrary.

    So there is knowing and there is "knowing." Believing that we can know anything other than what is imposed from without is a path most go down without a great deal of success. Learning how to observe without judgement allows individuals to see life much closer to how it really is instead of through our biases and misinterpretations.

    It seems to me that life is difficult enough without making ourselves the greatest impediment to living a life closer to the truth.
     
  2. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,574
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "Life is a bitch for everybody, but especially if it is your self who is most important to you." You seem to have difficulty transcending the ordinary.
     
  3. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Don't you people have anything original or constructive to offer?
     
  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    26,681
    Likes Received:
    7,533
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Notice that everything you’ve considered here in terms of “knowing” is of the intellect. You observe and conclude. You watch and assess and conclude. It’s all about mind and thought.

    But there is another kind of knowing. It is not of the intellect or thought or assessment. It is a direct, immediate experience. (Examine the word “immediate”.)

    For this kind of knowing it is necessary to get the mind out of the way first. Using any of several techniques to tire the mind with its discursive though, and ultimately silence it, leaving only "the thunder of silence”, is the first step. Then experience what comes. Things come mysteriously, out of nowhere. Like the direct, immediate experience of unconditional love, which everyone believes they understand but cannot, and invariably immediately betray their misunderstanding by offering an example of conditional love to "prove” they do understand. This is Knowing.
     
    Josh77 likes this.
  5. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Observing without interpretation is direct experience.
     
  6. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    26,681
    Likes Received:
    7,533
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That is the sort of thing that is said by those who have not had the direct, immediate experience of Being, and who think they know what they don’t know.

    You could try your depth of Knowing on my example of unconditional love and tell me what it is or give an example. It will make the subject clearer for you.
     
    Josh77 likes this.
  7. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, master. :)
     
  8. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,574
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Getting life advice from someone who believes "life is a bitch" and then you die, man is lower than worms, the female of the species is a miserable manipulative wretch and society is corrupt?........no thank you.
     
    yardmeat likes this.
  9. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Like all in things, you only see the bad and rarely the good. Life is a bitch [unless you're in denial]. Some of what man has done to his fellow man is lower than worms, and the female of the species can be difficult at times. And society is pretty corrupt, yes. But there is the balance, as well. And this is what you miss...all the truly incredible things.
     
  10. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    4,309
    Likes Received:
    1,831
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Knowing is to know that you know nothing. Duh! :lol:
     
  11. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,574
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "Like all in things, you only see the bad and rarely the good... But there is the balance, as well. And this is what you miss...all the truly incredible things"
    Are you talking to yourself? I find life wonderful and not a "bitch". I consider man on the whole good, while others focus on and exaggerate the bad. They seem to think we live in a dystopia, so poor them. They have issues, it is not reality. That is why I have an issue with you.
    Now you are backing off your flat negative statements about the human condition. I don't know if you are serious, but your life advice should be taken with a grain of salt because it hasn't seemed to work for you.
     
  12. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You demonstrate my point exactly. You know absolutely nothing about me yet look at what you assume. I have lived a great life but this doesn't mean that I am in denial of what is going on.

    If you have not found that life is a bitch [at times], then you are not being truthful. Have you never been around tragedy, serious illness, heartbreak and loss?

    If you have an issue with me, how must it be with those you actually do know a little bit?
     
  13. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,574
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Who's assuming? You pulled about me "you only see the bad and rarely the good" out of thin air, while I was using your actual statements and that is all I need to know about you.....what you think.

    But now you are pulling back. Life's a bitch....sometimes. So a lot of times it's not? "Some" of what man has done is lower than worms, but most is not? Women can be "difficult at times", well so can men. You are either running from your previous flat statements or you didn't believe them in the first place. So, in other words, I don't know what you really think.

    I try to stay away from cynics and misogynists in order to form healthy relationships.
     
  14. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Don't you ever get tired of talking about yourself?
     
  15. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,574
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thank you for the thoughtful introspection.
     
  16. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Mr. Originality. I told you the last time this happened to just go away.

    Please respect my wishes.
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,872
    Likes Received:
    11,323
    Trophy Points:
    113
    All understanding is ultimately based on belief, to some degree.
     
  18. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am not sure I follow you here. Please expound.
     
  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,872
    Likes Received:
    11,323
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nothing can be known with absolute 100% certainty. That's sort of just observing and establishing a truism of logic.
    In a way, then, a belief is not really fundamentally different from a known fact.

    Some knowledge we have a much stronger belief in than others, of course.
     
  20. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2022
    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is true [although even a statement such as this cannot be true :]. This is why one must use the intellect with great care. Although it can certainly point you in the correct direction, that's about it.
     

Share This Page