What is the scariest symbol on Halloween? [Pastor Jay]

I was doing volunteer janitor work at church today.....
and Pastor Jay saw me and asked me this question / riddle.....

"What is the scariest symbol on Halloween" [Pastor Jay]

I thought for a moment and I said.... the upside down cross!

Then Pastor Jay said no...... it is the cross itself.... right side up....... it should inspire appropriate fear in the Camp of those on the Left Hand Path..... into the Occult..... among Satanists and all religions who are extremely angry with Jesus.... [and I myself from 1990 to 2000 went through a decade where I also was angry with Jesus]!!!!

All of us need to better understand how Messiah Yeshua - Jesus TOOK MY CROSS!!!!!! MINE!!!!!!!!!!!

Once I gave this some thought I knew that this was one of the coolest ideas that I had ever heard related to Halloween!

Near death experiencer Kevin Zadai Th. D. was shown that Jesus went to the lowest level of hell for the time that He was in the grave, before His resurrection!

I kind of knew that for years but to hear this explained so clearly in chapter six of his book, [that is available for free if you will give an e-mail, he gives anybody and everybody two of his courses entire free of charge... but chapter six of his book "Heavenly Visitation" has the power to transform the modern Christian Church out of her lukewarm attitude into a Philadelphian attitude of going through open doors.


Dr. Kevin Zadai....."Adam:Man
Seth: Appointed
Enosh:Mortal
Kenan: Sorrow
Mahalalel:Blessed God
Jared:Shall come down
Enoch: Teaching
Methuselah: His death shall bring (that's the year the flood came).
Lamech: Despairing
Noah: Rest and comfort 
If you take the genealogy and read the meaning of the names from the Hebrew, it says,
"Man is appointed, mortal, sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down teaching that his death shall bring the despairing rest." (Walking with Enoch Level 2| Kevin L. Zadai | 20)

https://www.warriornotesschool.com/p/heavenly-visitation




I believe that the Life Review of former Atheist and near death experiencer is one of the best ways to show all of us that we should all have appropriate fear of the symbolism in The Cross..... especially as it relates to the most sacred day for the Occult Community!

Former Atheist Howard Storm saw an off the scale terrifying realm in the afterlife and the cause was his selfishness..... and nearly total lack of love for others.

https://near-death.com/howard-storm-nde/

 

All of those who have chosen the Left Hand Path should be aware of the confrontation between Anton LaVey vs near death experiencer Bob Jones......

...... Anton LaVey thought that he had to get VENGEANCE on near death experiencer Bob Jones due to three or four of his generals leaving Satanism.....
and becoming Christians after they heard near death experiencer Bob Jones speak. There are beings in the afterlife who are so filled with bitterness and anger and
vengeance and rage..... that they will destroy their own lives.....
and the lives of those closest to themselves..... but there truly is HOPE... and Arrows of Hope can knock DEMONS out of the lives of anybody and everybody......
[and for the record lots of us Christians have more and even worse demons than many witches and warlocks have]!!!!!!!!!!





Stranger Things: Occult, Witchcraft, and Satanism: Ep 122 on Your Prophetic Journey with Shawn Bolz



http://64.71.77.248/fq-protestant/tfq-en.html

I want to start an online outreach to Satanists....

?
Can demons be given hope?

1. 
   No... the demons have zero hope!
   4 vote(s)
   36.4%
2. *
   Yes..... Elijah must "restore all things"
   6 vote(s)
   54.5%
3. 
   I am not sure but I will research this further.
   1 vote(s)
   9.1%

Change Your Vote

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 3&version=KJV


"19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." [Acts 3]

 

You realize there is no such thing as "Satanists", right?

 

Good point......
because the people, [ like John Ramirez used to be ], who do some dark rituals and drink some blood and astral project and cause havoc in local churches.......

... .are told by Satan.... when they meet Satan face to face in a higher invisible dimension of space and time ....... that they should LIE AND CLAIM TO BE ATHEISTS......... So you do have a good point.......

... very few high level Satanists who actually have met Satan..... are allowed to admit that they are Theistic Satanists.........

because Satan is a Monarch...... and when he tells his followers to say that they are Atheists.... then they know better than to disobey!!!!!!!!!



From the OCCULT to CHRIST - EX Satanic Priest John Ramirez shares his powerful story


Former Covering Cherub Helel who I have renamed Stanley Milgram Lucifer Satan.......

... very likely deeply admires Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and is likely.......

.... playing a practical joke on his own most loyal and obedient followers that ultimately will be understood to be in the mind set of the Authority Figure or The Teacher Subject of the Stanley Milgram Ph. d. research!!!!!!

In my opinion... former Satanist John Ramirez is more like the Apostle Paul than any Christian evangelist or teacher that I can think of........
so...... this is because former Satanist John Ramirez really cares about people and he goes chasing after people who have gone far into the occult......
because John Ramirez... like Paul..... has overcame fear due to the fact that he has been filled with the LOVE of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.

Could Satan be playing a Stanley Milgram Ph. D. style joke on Satanists????

I am so hopeful that many high level occultists and Masons and Satanists will learn from this question....... and RUN to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus because there is EVIDENCE that yes..... Satan hates his own overly obedient followers...... and he at least ADMIRES those who have left Satanism as Evangelist John Ramirez has done!


http://www.politicalforum.com/index...s-and-the-media.331262/page-3#post-1072106575

Illuminati totally controls orgainzed religion, politics, and the media

The Black Pope, [who is above Pope Francis in real authority], is an important part of what near death experiencer, and former actual Atheist Alon Anava, who is now an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi....... terms The ERuv Rav....... their ways go back about five millennia to King Nimrod of Babylon.





If Pope Francis was allowed to do this......
he would very likely have attempted something like I suggested back in 2010.... but Pope Francis and Pope Benedict before him....... are not allowed to do what I suggested ..... because the Black Pope who is above them in real power and authority.... will not allow him to do something like this!

http://greendesertstoreducecarbon.blogspot.com

Friday, January 22, 2010
Is Pope Benedict XVI In The Best Position to Effectively Combat Climate Change?[/paste:font]

Homily for January 17, 2010 by Dennis Tate. Assignment #2 for MNST 130 class at St. Francis Xavier University.

....
I may be wrong in this assertion but over the past decade or so I have noticed over and over again that our opinions regarding politics and economics are astonishingly similar to our own ideas regarding philosophy and theology. Those of us who feel that God has a simple plan, that the souls of the dead are either saved or lost, either in heaven or in hell often seem content to be satisfied with a world in which a minority are spectacularly wealthy while the vast majority of humanity is forced to scrounge for a pathetic living. Dr. Moses Coady felt that there was some glimmer of real hope for the people who were in something of an economic purgatory. His confidence in their ability to be raised up to a higher level was instrumental in his being able to help so many thousand and now millions of poor people to transform their lives.

In 2007 Sir Richard Branson announced a $25 million award for a design for a device that could remove one billion tons of carbon out of the atmosphere annually. In a somewhat tongue in cheek but essentially still serious tone I submitted a proposal for this award:



"Dear Mr. Branson:It is my firm belief that the number one technological device
to reduce atmospheric greenhouse gases has already been invented. It is the
tree.

What is desperately needed at this time is not necessarily a new mechanical
device but instead a paradigm shift in economic theory regarding monetary policy. We require a readily understandable explanation on how leaders in business and government can direct not only millions, but actually trillions of dollars of investment into combating global warming."



One of the most effective practical methods that could be put into place in the
least amount of time would be dozens of the largest possible desalinization
plants all along the Mediterranean and Red Seas. Huge quantities of fresh water
could be dripped onto the Sinai and Sahara deserts and voila, well chosen
species of newly planted fast growing trees could soon change the color of these
relatively desolate areas, significantly reduce atmospheric CO2, positively
affect local weather patterns and at the same time significantly counterbalance
the increases in worldwide ocean levels as the polar ice caps melt. This will
buy us some extra time and thus expand the “very brief window of opportunity to
deal with climate change.” (Anti-Armageddon Paradigm Shift Monetary Policy
Theory, The Introduction by Dennis Tate).

One disagreement that I had with the editors of the Michael Journal was that they blamed all of our economic problems on our Prime Minister or on other secular political leaders. My opinion on who is actually in the best position to alter and redirect the entire world is a little different and perhaps the number one obsticle to my perhaps eventually becoming officially a Roman Catholic.


"So who is going to finance the construction of all these massive installations
not to mention the planting of all those seedling trees?"

I believe that it is
possible for you to do this yourself Mr. Branson. You have already created a
Virgin currency unit/coupon which has astonishing long term potential. My wife
Maria Jose just returned from a two week trip to the British VIRGIN Islands. It
is theoretically possible to link your Virgin coupon with the national currency
of a small nation and you could soon be playing around in macro-economics.


Considering the volume of business being done through your Virgin Group I would
submit that you already are.

Pope Benedict XVI may be in an even stronger position than you Mr. Branson to transform the world economy virtually overnight through the introduction of a new Vatican Currency Unit that could be linked
with each and every national currency where the Vatican State is free to do business."


The full text from my first submission for the Virgin Earth Challenge can be viewed here:


Former Atheist Rabbi Alon Anava's near death experience is a lot like Matthew chapter four.... and his teachings since his 2001 brush with death are amazingly like Matthew chapters five, six and seven, The Sermon on the Mount!!!!

https://www.alonanava.com





Rabbi Alon Anava's truly scary near death experience account SHOULD SCARE ALL OF US...... because this is a good example of what it is like to go into the afterlife WITHOUT THE BLOOD OF MESSIAH YESHUA - JESUS COVERING THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

During his second near death experience......
Rabbi Alon Anava met The Baal Shem Tov and then he was shown
a great dark angel........
[I assume that perhaps this is former Covering Cherub Helel]... and he is out to rid the earth of IDOLATRY.......

... so the second near death experience of Rabbi Alon Anava gives us EVIDENCE that Satan has actually came into obedience to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.... to an important degree......

... and his goal is to destroy IDOLATRY!!!!!!!

Theistic Satanism is a form of idolatry so........
Satanists should be scared to continue because it seems that Satan is actually playing a Stanley Milgram Ph. D. style PRACTICAL JOKE ON THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is the link to Rabbi Alon Anava's second near death experience......



Rabbi Alon Anava stated that he wants this message sent out to all Noahides and to all Gentiles.



You are going to want to go to the 1:11:00 mark in this video about the second near death experience account of Rabbi Alon Anava and Revelations chapter 12 will begin to make a lot more sense.

Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."



Rabbi Anava's 2nd Near Death Experience! And the message we need to be focusing on!

 

What the hell is in the water up there in Nova Scotia?

 

Well I would argue that an upside down cross is a symbol of St Peter. Whether you recognize Catholicism and saints or not you understand Peter was the Rock from which he built his church.

The upside down cross is not a satanic symbol it is a Christian symbol. And in some places you actually see it in the church.

 

I would say the most frightening is Frankenstein's monster. But I'm basing that on the story of Frankenstein. A man thought he could do better at making a man than God or nature or whatever and created a monster literally out of his own hubris.

I think that's why this story is told over and over again did you know Godzilla is Frankenstein. The only thing different is Godzilla was created accidentally but it was created by the act of man. Jurassic Park was Frankenstein. Amen created monsters because he thought he knew better than nature. This story permeates human culture because the thing that does the most damage to us is our own ego.

 

Well yeah there is people that call themselves satanists. Mostly it's a troll kind of an immature way to seem edgy.

I've watched some interviews with Anton LaVey who is quite a funny character.

Satanists largely just apatheists. Apathetic about theism.

I'm thinking what you mean by satanists is devil worshipers and there absolutely are devil worshipers. I didn't believe such a thing existed until I learned about it myself. They don't dress in the fancy silk and act like vampires from a 1930s movie that's the Satanist. They look like you and me.

You can find evidence of it if you look hard enough I'm not providing it for you so don't ask.

 

By "satanists" I mean devil worshippers who have a historic link. There is no such thing. Just like people who call themselves witches, there really is very little that connects them to the Witches of Celts lore, or any other subculture. Their so-called bibles and tomes are modern-day inventions. It's basically cosplay.

 

I would argue satanists aren't devil worshipers there more like pastafarians but with a little more edge.

Double worshipers actually worship the devil hence the name.

Based on what? I've actually seen evidence that they do exist that there is a such thing so feel free to falsify that if you're so sure you should know what evidence I'm talking about.

Celtic or Nordic or Saxon lore we're actually healers. They would use herbs and plants and peas and various other poultices to cure infection treat injury relieve pain so forth. This was deemed evil and therefore witches went from being someone you went to when you had a headache to someone you went to when you went to Texas somebody during the expansion of Christianity because Christianity said you should rely on God to treat you not medicine or witchcraft at the time it was the same thing.

Modern witches or Wicca is based on something that's created in the 1950s by a few college students that didn't want to go to chapel so they said they were pagans or Wicca same thing and created their own religion so as to avoid having to participate in another religion

So wiccans are real it's just that they're not healers. They're more into the mysticism than they are into the medicine. It's not that they don't exist it's just that we have doctors now.

 

After taking Matol for a couple of years.....
and going through a pretty intense Theological crisis.....
I met somebody who sure looked like the proverbial Pan......
but most people would have confused him with Satan.

It isn't every ten or fifteen minutes that somebody whose mom is from the Tribe of Dan....
with a Zerahite Jewish grandmother and Ephrayimite grandfather on dad's side......
puts in an offer.... proposed investment of TIME........ wager...... bet........ So......
my offer from 1990 did get some attention in the higher dimensional fallen angelic kingdoms.......

.......
Each part of this is another piece of the puzzle that must take place before Ezekiel chapter forty to forty eight and Zechariah chapter fourteen literally happen......

If you are curious....
you can read my 2010 e-mail to Sanhedrin Rabbi Hollander here:


http://www.politicalforum.com/index...on-to-the-world.612214/page-3#post-1074422268


I explained a lot about my Theological crisis here.....


Could the Christian gospel be much worse news?

Now that I understand how Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is using Applied Multiverse Theory to save those who got lost in other time lines......
I am now totally at peace and Shalom and all of my questions have been answered!


But... we should all be fearful of getting ourselves into one of those nasty hell realms......
even if there eventually is a way out.....
when Jesus fulfills Ezekiel 37 and recreates a moment in time while we were still alive as a human.......... capable of making the choice of LIFE...... teshuvah .. .repentance!!!!!!

https://near-death.com/christian-andreason-nde/

 

Wow!

You are correct...... this sets up Transhumanism......
and yes.....
this should scare all of us because certain billionaires seemed like they wanted to reduce the world's population down from six point eight billion people down to two or three billion people back in 2010 and.....
....
they were actually probably aiming for five hundred million real humans left.......
....
and then billions of genetically modified humans who could be patented..... and thus..... OWNED by the billionaires!!!!!!







Transhumanism & the Human Enhancement Revolution | Tom Horn | ISN Mentoring Session

 

In addition to my own research on the topic, I also participated (inadvertently) on part of the crew for that special Geraldo Rivera did way back in '89 or '90, the "Satanism Underground" or whatever it was called. I was a soundman on one of the women interviewed who claimed to have been a breeder for some satanic group. It was whacky and unhinged. I didn't know that was what the show was about but was the craziest interview I ever worked on.

I'm not saying there aren't people who claim to be Satanists, but I find less Satan and more anti-Christian / hedonism involved than an actual worship of the Prince of Darkness.

 

Way back in 1943 Dr. George Ritchie had a brush with death.....
and he was shown that we are surrounded by invisible dimensions that
are teeming with life forms and former humans......
....
many of which seem to want to lead us humans downward and downward and downward and downward......

... into deeper and deeper levels of darkness.

What amazes me is that Dr. George Ritchie sure seemed to explain an afterlife with higher and higher and higher invisible dimensions.....

that sounds to me to fit perfectly with what Dr. Stephen Hawking and a co-author wrote for a scientific journal in the 1990's.

Joe Fisher wrote "Hungry Ghosts" that explains about the Channelling movement.... that I believe fits perfectly with what Dr. George Ritchie was shown.


https://near-death.com/george-ritchie-nde/

I think that it is obvious that hard drugs can open up the human mind to be influenced by these invisible intelligences....
who may well be deceased humans.....
even more rapidly and fully than alcohol would have done back in 1943.


Here are some quotations on these invisible dimensions that Dr. Stephen Hawking also explained in chapter thirteen of Stephen Hawking's Universe that was entitled The Anthropic Principle.

I find it very difficult to imagine that near death experiencers talking about life in invisible dimensions of space and time...... and Theoretical Physicists talking about this sort of thing... is purely coincidental?????

http://carbonbias.blogspot.com

The highest dimensions that Dr. George Ritchie was shown sure sound like the highest energy dimensions of String Theory!?


https://near-death.com/george-ritchie-nde/

 

Giving away sweets on Halloween while dressed as a Pirate is no more sinful than dressing as a bunny and doing it on Easter.

 

There's a difference between satanists and devil worshipers.

Satanists play up the theatrics just to get a rise out of people.

And devil worshipers worship the devil. I didn't think they were real either.

 

Yeah Halloweens origins are actually Christian.

 

So what convinced you they are real?

 

Well I went to Police academy and part of my training was dealing with religions and cults and how different groups interact with people differently. And I saw a devil worshiper is one of these groups and I kind of laughed about it because I thought like you did why would anybody to worship the devil that doesn't make sense. My instructor who was a 30-year veteran from the police and also a military veteran asked me what was so funny and I told them devil worshipers. And he said yes. I was expecting a joke it wasn't a joke. He explained to me the difference between the costume satanists and actual devil worshipers. And claimed to have encountered them. And I read a few investigations that involved double worshipers. Complete with evidence photos and court cases. Most of them involved some sort of crime not saying devil worshipers are prone to crime and it's just some people are criminals.

A Satanist what you think of as a devil worshiper only really does that as a gag. It's a sort of mockery of Christianity it can be of Islam and Judaism too but mostly Christianity. It's all flash and it's a costume they take off. Devil worshipers are the other way around there is no flash it's not a gag most of what they do is in private and it's not illegal or anything it's just something they do. It's not a misunderstanding of some sort of non-Christian ritual. It's not like a pagan thing that gets legitimately worship of the devil.

Things like alters and I'm going to say sacrifices and this doesn't mean cutting up animals and spilling blood. It's not necessarily a crime. It would be burning incense or offering food or wine or at the most a drop of blood. Kind of like some of the voodoo traditions which does exist. I mean do you not believe that there are voodoo practitioners?

At first I thought that's what it was. Like Santeria or something. But no they didn't use Christian saints names in place of voodoo spirits like Santeria. They're not Cubans.

But it's not like the movies they're not drinking blood at the equinox and biting the heads off of puppies or anything like that. They're just normal people seem to keep to themselves with this sort of thing understandable. It's really rather ho-hum not very interesting except I don't understand why. I understand Satanism I understand pastafarians that's an effigy it makes sense. I understand Santeria that's a kind of blend of religious rituals because at one time my native population didn't want to give up their traditions and there were catholic conquistadors that probably thought they were summoning demons.

They understand that the devil is the bad guy in the story it's not something they do to get attention it's the opposite of that. Normally the alters are kept tucked away where even house guests don't see them. I'm not sure of any rituals or any practices because it's sort of a private thing.

This is the modern day we have the internet and there's a way to find out about this for anyone. I would say if you're really interested and it is somewhat interesting peel back the layers and see for yourself. I'd say it's somewhat interesting just in the fact that it's puzzling. And if you figure out these ways to identify these people you start wondering how many of them you encounter.

But it's not like uncovering this underground creep show it's more like finding out that your dad plays golf every other Sunday and lies about it to your mom. It's not even as salacious as your dad goes to a strip club every other Saturday and lies about it.

 

Thank you very much for sharing that. Now I know where you are coming from, and I like that you mentioned Santeria as a counterpoint. I am Cuban and know quite a bit about Santeria, which technically is the "white" magic of the Afro-Carribean religions, its opposite is Paleros, which do a lot of necromancy-type stuff which obviously is illegal since they are literally defacing and robbing from graves. Voodoo, or Vudu, is also very interesting, but Louisiana voodoo is different than Jamaican and Haitian voodoo. The book and movie, The Serpent and the Rainbow (198 blew the lid from the dark secrets of voodoo's past, but the venom used in the preparation of a "zombie" has contributed to medical science, so there is a plus in there, somewhere for the rest of us non-believers.

But what you seem to be describing about devil worshippers doesn't share the same attributes of these fringe esoteric religions. There is a community of believers and a history with these non-Christian religions. You seem to be describing lone individuals who practice this. That seems more like a psychological manifestation, an aberration and departure from cultural norms. That's not what I am talking about.

Back in the '80s, there was a lot of talk and belief that devil worshippers were abducting and sexually molesting kids. A lot of police resources were used to crack down on these groups, but other than a few bored and weird teenagers who liked to prance around in a forest after dark, they never found any real meaningful network of devil worshipers. In other words, it was a paranoid public that kept insisting devil worshipers were behind all sorts of things. Even to this day, there are people, mostly Christians, who still believe these devil worshipers are behind anything that they deem as evil. Maybe this is something unique to Christianity, after all, there was such a thing as the Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials which certainly establishes a pattern.

 

@DennisTate, I know that NDEs are near and dear to your heart, as you post about it a lot. There was an article I read about 2 weeks ago on this very topic, unfortunately, I have not been able to find it again.

Basically, the article was about scientific studies trying to understand the phenomena in greater detail. It mentions that these phenomena have become more frequent because of the advent of medical science.

Although NDEs vary from one person to another, they often include such features as the following:

• feeling very comfortable and free of pain
• a sensation of leaving the body, sometimes being able to see the physical body while floating above it
• the mind functioning more clearly and more rapidly than usual
• a sensation of being drawn into a tunnel or darkness
• a brilliant light, sometimes at the end of the tunnel
• a sense of overwhelming peace, well-being, or absolute, unconditional love
• a sense of having access to unlimited knowledge
• a “life review,” or recall of important events in the past
• a preview of future events yet to come
• encounters with deceased loved ones, or with other beings that may be identified as religious figures

Obviously, there is scientific value in understanding what is actually going on with these NDEs, but my friend, the only thing I can fault you here is in the sin of Apophenia (I'm using "sin" figuratively here). The moment the discussion tries to explain more than what we can visually observe, the more new agey it sounds.

The link above is to the University of Virginia's School of Medicine and their ongoing study of this.

If I find that other article, I'll post it.​

 

@DennisTate

Check this out: https://bigthink.com/series/the-big-think-interview/are-near-death-experiences-real/

 

I found Santeria to be quite interesting actually have met practitioners. These sorts of folk magic style religions spiritual things I don't know what you'd call it always seemed interesting to me because in and out of itself it wasn't good or evil and just was.

but that's what devil worshipers are. I'm not sure that it is a departure from cultural norms because you would never know.

Nope I have heard this referred to as satanic panic this seems to be a culture phenomenon that ebbs and flows. It's not real there isn't some black magic coven that seeks to sacrifice goats and have orgy's in praise of Lucifer. I think people buy into this crap because it's kind of entertaining to think about it. Real devil worshipers aren't this interesting.

I think it was about 2013 or so there was this thing with people dressing up as clowns and spooking people. There were all sorts of myths about it. I found it rather amusing. But the reality was it was probably younger people that were just bored. I don't think there was a coven of evil clowns out to steal people's souls or whatever.

Unless there is some very secret thing going on no. Devil worshipers, the people that really worship the devil are barely interesting

There's all sorts of different things people believe in. Look at alien abductions, mothman, the Jersey devil, lock ness monster, bigfoot. It's folklore

I think it's unique to a specific group of Christians. I remember reading about and hearing about these people that thought dungeons and dragons was a trick to get people into believing in the devil and worshipping him. They warned people about it. I remember people believing Harry Potter was about black magic and doing devil worship.

I saw a video of a preacher type guy talking to a group of devotees about men wearing skinny jeans and how that's just a way for the gay fashion industry to make men into sexual object.

Some people believe some weird crap and it's almost all way more interesting than devil worshipers.

 

I definitely agree with that.

There's an old saying, there may be a limit to man's intelligence, but there's no limit to stupidity. While I don't know if some of these people are just in ga-ga land, they have apparently made some interesting choices along the way as to what they believe.