What would the US do?

Discussion in 'Political Science' started by yangforward, Jan 15, 2024.

  1. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What did the US do?

    When the USSR began placing nuclear capable missiles in Cuba
    military leaders in the US advocated a partial or full invasion of
    Cuba with air and naval support.

    President Kennedy preferred a blockade, in particular a 'quarantine'
    against military equipment rather than a full blockade which is considered
    an aggressive action.

    In the end, the USSR withdrew the missiles in exchange for the US
    withdrawing our nuclear armed missiles in Turkey.
     
  2. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Now jump forward many years.

    In late 2021 both NATO and the White House, having already placed
    dual use launchers in Romania and Poland, decided after getting
    Ukraine into NATO, they would place dual use launchers in Ukraine,
    where they would be a third of the distance from Moscow the Cuban
    missiles were from Washington DC.

    And decided if Russia felt threatened that was their problem, and
    told the Russians that Ukraine is a sovereign country and can do
    whatever they want within their own boundaries and it is none
    of Russia's business.
     
  3. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    I doubt Russia is that worried about the US nuking them. It isn't like we couldn't do it a hundred other ways. This tension between the two is 100 years old.
     
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  4. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    You forget... JFK DID authorize an invasion. The event was named after the "Bay of Pigs". Thousands of US backed Cubans hit the beaches. At the last moment, JFK cancelled the promised air support. Most of the Cubans were captured and we spent the next ten years paying ransom to get them back.
     
  5. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    What the heck is a "dual use launcher"????
     
  6. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    'Dual use' means the initial aim is to build an anti missile defense capability, but the same system can be used to launch
    nuclear armed attack missiles:

    The United States missile defense complex in Poland, replaced a planned site in Redzikowo, Poland with a phased plan
    —the Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System, including SM-3 Block IIA interceptors - wikipedia

    But the same launch tubes and the control systems I understand will also function to launch Tomahawk nuclear-armed cruise missiles,
    for attacking Russia, hence the term 'dual use'.

    Siting a defense' system in Ukraine puts it at a disadvantage because it is so close to the Russian ICBM sites that it would not
    be able to intercept the missiles, having to chase after them, whereas at a site further to the West the intercepting missiles have time
    to reach the incoming ICBMs.
     
  7. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What you mentioned is the explanation of John Mearsheimer. According to him the current Eastern European policy was set up by American genius and military hero who freed Iraq from murderous Saddam Hussein – G. W. Bush.

    But anyone who knows Russian history knows that historically Russia was the aggressor country who always prayed on the weakness of their neighbors and all Eastern countries begged the US and the West to join NATO.
    So it was an error to support Ukraine? IMHO yes, for two reasons:
    1. Russia is a nuclear power and different set of rules applied to nuclear countries
    2. The West knows it has no balls to support Ukraine for real.

    Much better would some kind of compromise, to make Ukraine the Western country without NATO membership, like it was with Finland.
     
  8. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    I'll have to research this. While there are GLCM's (Ground Launched Cruise Missiles) The software which guides a which are offensive. The launch systems are totally incompatible, physically and software-wise with Air Defense systems and vice-versa. The systems which launch Air Defense weapons are generally not compatible with systems designed to attack ground targets. It's never been done that I know of.

    Thanks... I'll do some research.
     
  9. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I would expect the electronics and software of the launch systems to be incompatible,
    and they would even launch in opposite directions,
    But if the launch tubes and buildings are there then anything could be fitted inside the buildings.

    To make a good guess at the situation I'd suggest we think a step ahead and my guess is the
    overall strategy is a repeat of getting the USSR to break up, to break up the largest country
    remaining there which has the largest Natural Gas reserves of any country in the world.

    If we can frighten the Russian public enough they might capitulate and allow their country to
    be 'reorganized' into 18 small republics each of which we could then 'negotiate' gas prices with.

    I'm not sure how feasible the plan is, but the Neocons think it is good enough otherwise they
    would not be trying to do it.
     
  10. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    I'm just an Oldiecon. I don't see such grandiose plans as possible. .. nor necessary. Russia has proven to be a "paper tiger" in the Ukraine. We should worry much more about China... and crazies like North Korea and Iran with nukes.
     
  11. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I really don't think so, there is a country to worry about, but i still don't tend to mention them because they really are scary.
     
  12. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Just do a BING AI or Google AI search on the Cuban Missile Crisis, for the full particulars.

    The long and short of it, JFK called Khrushchev's bluff, as JFK blockaded (quarantined) Cuba, then Khrushchev 'blinked' as it were, and yes, Turkey was part of the deal but that deal was made secret. We didn't learn of it until a few years later
     
  13. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So what the US actually did was diplomacy and in the end
    the USSR withdrew the missiles from Cuba and the US
    withdrew our missiles from Turkey.

    Diplomats prior to the neocons in the Biden Administration
    made it very clear that the government in Russia would
    consider NATO and NATO missiles in Ukraine a very serious
    threat.
     
  14. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And it was NATO and the US that refused to negotiate,
    even though the missiles in Ukraine would be a third
    the distance from Moscow that the USSR missiles in
    Cuba were.

    NATO admits refusing to avoid Ukraine war.png
     
  15. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    Before you go any further, you should become a little bit familiar with the weaponry. The missiles stationed in Cuba during the crisis were long range missiles. They could Seattle and the west coast with ease. No one ever suggested we station similar missiles in Ukraine. Indeed, we don't have much in the inventory like that anymore after retiring LANCE and PERSHING II missiles.
     
  16. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A hypersonic missile from the eastern part of Ukraine would reach Moscow
    without enough warning to get people into the shelters under Moscow,
    that's why the US wants NATO in Ukraine.

    Not that the US would have much to gain from nuking Moscow, but
    it is to frighten the Russian public into capitulating to the US and
    breaking up Russia and allowing US companies access to the largest
    natural gas reserves in the world.

    Similar to what caused the USSR to capitulate and drop out of
    the Cold War and allowed Esso some really good bargains.
     
  17. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    NATO doesn't have a ground launched hypervelocity weapon although we do have one launched from an aircraft. So Ukraine doesn't play in the game at all.
     
  18. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I forgot to say that such a weapon is expected in the next couple of years or so
     
  19. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Problem here is that the neighboring regions of the United States are not in fear of the United States invading and conquering them.

    As such the neighboring regions of Russia are scared that the person currently in charge who thinks that everybody outside of Russia is actually Russian and by extension their states are Russian States might actually invade them which gives them an incentive to want to form a defensive Alliance to prevent that kind of an expansion or aggression.

    So what do you do? If you're a smaller neighboring state of Russia do you just pray to God that the little midget Hitler doesn't invade you?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
  20. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the US propagandists were correct that Putin's lack of height was
    the best angle to attack his reputation with the general public.
     
  21. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    Biden may have us nuked by then.
     
  22. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe, but I think his (the people around him) plan for the US is the same as his plan for
    Russia - hand the natural resources over to his friends, and keep the bulk of the population
    on low rates of pay.
     
  23. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    Somewhere floating around is an opinion that this all staged by China who want the US, Russia and Iran to ruin themselves in a nuclear war and China will remain to pick up the pieces and rule it all.
     
  24. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Even if they had the plan there is ample evidence our own Neo-cons implemented the
    US threat to Russia (poking the bear), I'm not sure about the rest.
     
  25. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    Putin attacked Ukraine based on Biden's cowardice in Afghanistan. When Putin splashed a US Predator over international waters without any consequences, it just added fuel to the flames.
     

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