Excellent Drew, you must have the patience of Job of the Bible... retorting to the like of klip In fact I thank you for backing the veracity of my very old remark that <Israel does not initiate but rather retaliate>...
Wow. It seems that you are making one major point, Drew. I take up your multitude of challenges. 1) Here’s the reference that you provided …. I repeat, yours: So there was a ceasefire, Drew. There is evidence of this ceasefire …. Yours. It is in the singular … “the ceasefire” not “the ceasefires”. It is the Habib ceasefire. Your source knew that there was a ceasefire ... the Habib ceasefire 2) Here’s an official Israeli government site acknowledging the Habib ceasefire (click): It seems like the Israeli government knew that there was a ceasefire – the Habib ceasefire. Although I do admit that the rogue faction were a bit late in getting to hear about it .... a few hours it seems. And Arafat chastised them .... for what .... oh yes, the ceasefire. 3) Here’s another Jewish site -http://www.jta.org/1981/12/14/archive/habib-cease-fire-on-lebanon-israel-border-hascooled-the-situation. Sure seems they knew about the ceasefire (singular) : 4) Looks like The Global Jewish News Source knew the reality of the Habib ceasefire. So, amazingly, did Mr Habib. He did not find it to be a “phantom”. http://countrystudies.us/israel/33.htm Seems it wasn’t “imaginary”. 5) http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/11/world/haig-says-truce-breach-in-mideast-worries-us.html The NYT definitely know about it. Even the ‘Murkin administration knew about Habib's ceasefire. In fact EVERYONE knows, except Drew - "no evidence of a ceasefire", "the non existent ceasefire", "A Unicorn?"; "a phantom"; "fictional". Hmmmm .. perhaps not exactly everyone. Next!!
OK, time to put an end to this .. an end to all of the nonsense about there being no ceasefire governing what happened along the Lebanese border from 16 July 1981 until Israel violently broke it by invading Lebanon while the PLO had been faithfully observing it for almost a year. Remember, this is a thread about Israel breaking ceasefires and being the guilty aggressive invader as opposed to the Zionist Myth that Israel never attacks; Israel only retaliates. International Conflicts and Peace Making Processs: Role of the United Nations - by Satish Chandra, Mala Chandra (2006) ISBN 81-8324-166-2 Mittal Productions, Daryagaj, New Delhi, India (click) So there WAS a ceasefire and it WAS brokered by Philip Habib. Secondly it WAS confined to hostile military action between Lebanese Israeli territory, and not anywhere else on the planet. That is fully in line with what I previously quoted by Sharons son, namely that the restriction of the Habib ceasefire to Lebanon was of great concern to his father. So it wasnt a secret ceasefire. Everyone knew about it at the time. They actively accepted it, so they were fully aware of the content. So if a host of parties knew about the ceasefire and Israel and the PLO knew its contents because they were continuously accusing each other and citing contents of the ceasefire, why the difficulty in finding the actual document? I have posted this previously but we are dealing with the Isaiah 42:20 syndrome it seems: Back to International Conflicts and Peace Making Processs: Role of the United Nations - by Satish Chandra, Mala Chandra (2006): Back to The Land Beyond Promise: Israel, Likud and the Zionist Dream by Colin Shindler (click) From Haaretz, 25 June 1982: -------------------------------------- So wrote Zeev Schiff and Ehud Yaari in their seminal analysis of Israels invasion of Lebanon. With the passing of time that cost is making itself known. With the advent of the internet and Google Books, we have a huge resource to check the claims and counter claims. And one part of the cost is that the June 1982 invasion by Israel can be seen by those with open minds to have been not only reckless, wilful, delusionary and calamitous, but also a manifestation of duplicity, lies, deceit, and unencumbered nationalist greed for yet another step towards Eretz Yisrael Israel never attacks; Israel only retaliates MYTH BUSTED!!!
Even the PLO it seems .. So, the PLO assured him that it would observe the ceasefire called for by the Security Council? They must be Zionist as well and should have been subject to Childer's ire. Here is the UNSC Ceasefire; Hmm, thought you said that it was just about Lebanon when in fact, the ceasefire the PLO have admitted to using in your above well researched quote is the UNSC one which states that it is talking about attacks EVERYWHERE and, in the entire Middle East, not just Lebanon. And when the PLO leadership green lighted terrorist attacks in Israel, 240 of them, that was breaking of this ceasefire. Hence, my original contention has been proved thanks to your hard work Klip Kap..... All of those examples of invasion stemmed from Arab Aggression. You also stated that I held the PLO responsible for the invasion when in fact all I have said is that Israels actions are borne from Arab Aggression. "How about the initiations of hostilities and breaking of ceasefires?" "Not required as all of those examples of invasion stemmed from Arab Aggression." And then, you began to get into specifics namely the Lebanon ceasefire which of course, the PLO were players in. At that point, of course we would be talking about the PLO as they were one of the key players. Anyhow, thank you for your hard work in providing the evidence to counter your own argument. You make things so easy for us people with busy lives.
I do have patience but this one amuses me greatly. He has great mirth and his ups and downs traverse the scale of emotion very entertainingly. I look forward to his deposits and the contortions he goes through to present them are sometimes off the charts. Thanks for your input!
A) Every single solitary war in which Israel has engaged in was preceded by numerous Fedayeen cross border attacks including the most recent war which started with Hezbollah invading Israeli territory and taking Israeli troops as hostages, these Fedayeen were trained by, funded, armed, and directed by the Egyptians that clearly falls under the definition of invasion which you just presented, notice it doesn't require that they hold said territory for it to qualify as an invasion and in '48 and '73 they were coupled with regular military ground invasions for the purpose of pushing the Jews into the sea. B) These illegal invasions were in addition to other overt acts of war; such as, illegally closing the international waterway of the straits if Tiran.
BS, much like all wars entered into by Israel this too was caused by Arab aggression IE the attempted assassination of the Israeli ambassador by the Abu Nidal faction of the PLO. Thought you could slip it by us didn't you? Just like you people only a few short years after the 2nd Lebanon War try to ignore the fact that it was precipitated by the invasion of Israel by Hezbollah forces who took Israeli soldiers hostage.
Routing out fedayeen who violated the cease fire line first by shelling Israeli villages from the Golan Heights and they didn't go into Syria proper but the DMZ.
Actually genetic testing proves that the vast majority of Jews are tied to Israel by blood 80% of Jewish males and 50% of Jewish females can trace their lineage directly to the neolithic Levant.
No their incursions into the DMZ were the result of Syrian shelling of Israeli villages, furthermore, the ceasefire agreement did not prohibit civil entry into the DMZ for farming, farming land is not a provocation worthy of shelling villages.
you sir, are very wrong. The peace accord at the end of the 1948 war had established demilitarized zones (DMZs) between Israel and Syria[52][53] However, as recalled by UN military forces officers such as Odd Bull and Carl Von Horn, Israelis gradually took over portions of the zone, evicting Arab villagers and demolishing their homes; these actions incurring protests from the UN Security Council.[54] Moshe Dayan, the Israeli defense minister at the time of the Six Day War, recounted in a 1976 interview that Israeli policy in the Demilitarized Zone between 1949 and 1967 was "to seize some territory and hold it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us", thus changing "the lines of the ceasefire accord with military actions that were less than a war".[52][55] Dayan related further that in the process Israel had provoked more than 80% of the border clashes with Syria in the lead-up to its April 7, 1967 invasion of Syria.[52][53] In defense of the Israeli actions historian Michael Oren said that "[t]here is an element of truth to Dayan's claim", but that Israeli actions were justified, as "Israel regarded the de-militarized zones in the north as part of their sovereign territory". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Six-Day_War#Israel_and_Syria
Conveniently left out the part most pertinent to my argument: Overall, Oren's account of the period shows Israel as the innocent victim of Syrian provocation and aggression.[60] From the Golan Heights, Syrians had shelled Israeli settlements and other targets,[61][62] such as fishermen in the Sea of Galilee,[63] drawing punitive responsive strikes from Israel.[62] In addition, following the 1966 coup in Damascus, attacks and acts of sabotage by Syrian-based Palestinian guerrillas (Fatah) had increased,[64][65] although Jordan was still the main source. For two and a half years from the start of the attacks up until the Israeli invasion of Syria on April 7, 1967, the Fatah incursions launched from Syrian territory had resulted in three Israeli deaths, all of them soldiers.[66] In September 1966 the Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin gave an interview in which he stated that Israeli actions "should be aimed at those who carry out the attacks and at the regime that supports them". These 'unfortunate' words were interpreted as a 'plot' to bring down the Syrian government.[67]
I don't agree, Face, Your. In December 1947 a civil war erupted in the area designated to be Jewish territory. By March/April 1948 the Zionist militia and terrorist groups had moved into territory designated to be Palestinian Arab land. And this was months before the Arab countries declared war. Jewish historians rarely bother to inform readers where the early ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages took place. When you read Benny Morris book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, even he, most meticulous of archival research historians, does not inform his readers. But when you look up the names of the villages, you find that they were by no means confined to the Jewish territory as allocated by 181. This was particularly evident in Morris second wave. One of the earliest and most notorious of these was Deir Yassin. Try to find in the Zionist accounts that Dier Yassin was in Arab designated land. I wish you the best of luck. Now, how many Fedayeen infiltrations occurred from Egypt, which caused Israel to decide to Invade Egypt in 1956? Which numerous cross-border attacks were perpetrated from Jordan prior to Israels invasion of that country in November 1966? According to IDF records, in 1967 prior to Israels invasion of Syria, what was the main cause of conflict aling the Syrian border Fedayeen attacks across the border on Israel, or Israeli farming provocations in the DMZ? How many Fedayeen crossed the mutual border into Israel prior to Israels invasion of Egypt in June 1967? How many Fedayeen infiltrations did Begin cite in his defence of the 1982 Lebanon invasion?
MYTH ALERT!!! MYTH ALERT!!! MYTH ALERT!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal#Criticism_of_the_PLO: "Arafat expelled Abu Nidal from Fatah in March 1974, and the rift between the two groups, and the two men, was complete" So from March 1974 the Abu Nadal faction was no longer part of Fatah/PLO. I know that this comes as a surprise to you, because Begin claimed that the PLO was responsible for the attempted 1982 assassination. That just shows you how false Begin was and how gullible the 'Murkins were to believe him.
MYTH ALERT!!! MYTH ALERT!!! MYTH ALERT!!! Ronstar is correct. Pure Zionist Hasbara. Dayan showed it to be. UN Dutch Colonel Jan Mühren states from first-hand eye-witness experience that that position consists of "a flagrant distortion of the historical facts .... pure lies). Even the IDF records show that "aggressive farming" was the main cause for conflict along Golan. Ronstar has shown that the UN had already sanctioned Israel for these practices which included the demolition of Arab villages and the expulsion (more ethnic cleansing) of their inhabitants. Zionist myth, nothing more. But congratulations on one thing, Face, Your. At least you have focussed in on Begin’s main excuse for letting the Butcher Sharon loose on Lebanon, which even the Israelis could not stomach and led to Sharon’s dismissal. When Begin knew that his referral to the 240 attacks on Israel would not wash because they had nothing to do with the Habib ceasefire, he desperately needed another excuse (as I have shown from analyses by Israeli historian Porath and others). The UNIFIL observer records confirm that the PLO had been observing the ceasefire as of 16 June 1981, i.e. 11 moths previously. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1985/DTM.htm The issue of UNSC 490 touted in much of the recent part of this thread is an utter red herring It is not a question of amusement nor of patience, but of verifiable facts - see my signature. The Palestinians and Israelis never accepted “490”. That is an historical fact. As I showed, all parties and all commentators understand abundantly clearly that the dramatic decrease in attacks across the Lebanon border in July 1981 was due to Habib’s efforts. The full international document record is crystal clear on this. The entire planet is aware that it was Habib’s efforts and the agreement by Israel and the PLO to abide with Habib’s ceasefire that led to the lack of any serious incidents for many months along the Lebanese border. As I have reference “All of the parties accepted the Habib ceasefire”. End of story. Only Drew believes that the ceasefire being observed was the non-agreed UNSC 490 (and probably HBendor, given his enthusiastic support). Two persons who hold that opinion versus thousands of journalists, historians, analysts, commentators and students who believe otherwise and never ever raised that “490” red herring. The weight against UNSC 490 is thundering in its dominance. Hundreds of references and not a single one supporting Drew and HB’s position directly. So, yes, with the attempted assassination by the Abu Nidal faction in London, Begin claimed that the Habib ceasefire had been broken. This was Begin’s trigger. And it was just as fragile as his “240 attacks”. We have seen that there was grave concern amongst the Israeli leadership because they knew full well that the Habib ceasefire only applied to the Lebanese border and surroundings. Begin and Sharon belittled these more realistic voices who pointed this out in Israel; they accused those who tried to take a more objective standpoint, nor of being wrong, but of a far greater crime, namely of “erecting a protective wall around the PLO inside and outside Israel” (see my previous quotes from Shindler’s book on the Likud party – he provides many more). Begin desperately needed an excuse to attack the PLO who were showing absolute determination to abide with the negotiated agreement (see the Global Security reference above) Further from Shindler’s book: The Abu Nadal group was not even based in Lebanon. It was based in Syria. Shindler provides even more piquant detail. His book is available on GoogleBooks. I have referenced it. And this is the Group that Begin claimed was the same as the PLO. As I wrote previously, Begin’s latest excuse to attack was as diaphanously fragile as his “240 attacks”. But the ‘Murkins closed their eyes, opened their mouths, and swallowed ….. yet again. At the end of the Lebanon adventure some 20 000 people lay dead, all based on trumped-up Israeli excuses for invasion. “Israel never attacks; Israel only retaliates” ---- MYTH BUSTED for the 9th time
"Aggressive farming" lol, sorry sport but the armistice did not prohibit civil actions in the DMZ whatsoever. Israeli military actions in the DMZ were in direct response to the shelling of Israeli villages, the firing on the farmers was the actual violation of the DMZ not the farming itself. And just as today you people completely ignore the Hezbollah rockets shot into Northern Israel from Lebanon, you now conveniently ignore the rockets fired into Israel by the PLO starting on July 10, 1981. But yes in the world of Klip Klap the 240 attacks on Israel launched from Lebanon was in no way a violation of the ceasefire. The Habib ceasefire hadn't been established until July of 1981 so how in the hell could the PLO have followed the ceasefire up until June of '81? July comes AFTER June! The 240 attacks were from the start of the ceasefire until the start of the war so your assertion that they were not violations is unmitigated bull(*)(*)(*)(*).
lol, the Jewish Agency completely accepted the partition plan while the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee headed by the Nazi Mufti completely rejected it the second it was voted for by the UN and it was the Arabs who started the civil war by ambushing Jewish buses and slaughtering their passengers. The Deir Yassin massacre on April 9, 1948 which resulted in 107 dead villagers was followed by the Hassah Medical Convoy Massacre on April 13th 1948 resulting in 79 dead Jews, and itself was followed by the Kfar Etzion Massacre on May 13, 1948 resulting in the deaths of 129 Jews, Kfar Etzion was in turn followed by the al-Dawayima massacre where appx.100 Arabs were killed on October 28, 1948, and point of fact Deir Yassin itself was preceded by the Ben Yehuda Street Bombing of February 22, 1948 in which 58 Jewish civilians were killed. The Fedayeen were operating out of Jordan primarily, however, they were trained, armed, funded, and directed by Nasser and Egyptian intelligence. It was a response to numerous al-Fatah raids into Israel actually. The armistice which led to the DMZ provided no prohibition against civilian activities. Again they were primarily launched out of Lebanon, however, they were directed from Egypt. 240 between July, 1981 and the start of the war.
Who is talking about civil actions in the DMZ? Of course these were allowed. That is not what Dayan was referring to - let me remind you - which was politically and military insprired. It was part of Rabin's "Syrian paranoia" (see Tom Segev's book "1967") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan: This Dayan recollection was discussed in detail here - http://www.politicalforum.com/lates...ask-president-withdraw-18.html#post1062389184 - on this very forum in March this year. I have already told you that a UN observer, Colonel Jan Mühren, called the Zionist version “An utter distortion of the historical record; pure lies” based on what he saw in the DMZ over many months. But these have been presented on this forum before – here http://www.politicalforum.com/lates...ask-president-withdraw-17.html#post1062385731 - but as usual the Isaiah 42:20 syndrome prevents some from registering these facts, since they stand in the way of the standard Zionist mantras. There you can find 9 sources (in other words 7 more) that are all perfectly in line with Dayan, Mühren, and with the IDF descriptions of the conflict events in the DMZ supplied by Jonsa, which show conclusively that, rather than “terrorist infiltration from Syria”, it was this “aggressive farming” with military support described by Dayan that overwhelmingly dominates Jonsa’s list. You, and many like you, emphasise the 20% and ignore the 80%. What's new? To that we can add the wealth of information, also confirming that the Israelis were the main cause of the provocations, as supplied by Gluska and by Quigley in their recent extremely detailed treatments of those DMZ provocations. Gluska describes in great detail how there were debated and approved by the Israeli Prime Minister. He gives a blow by blow description of how one such provocation got out of hand leading to the IAF invading Syria on 7 April 1967 in what the Israeli press described as WAR. No we don’t. You do realise that July 10, 1981 was before the Habib ceasefire was concluded, don't you?; the only ceasefire that Israel, the PLO and all the other parties recognised (except a few individuals on this forum). It was in the middle of one of two major conflict series (more on that below). So why do you not tell us how those conflicts started and progressed, instead of repeating the standard Zionist mantra that it was all and only about the PLO firing rockets into northern Israel. Let us find out by checking International Conflicts and Peace Making Processs: Role of the United Nations By Satish Chandra, Mala Chandra [http://books.google.es/books?id=2WRhyGYIessC&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false ] Are we talking about PLO lobbing rockers into northern Israel here, and hence breaking the June 1978 agreement? NO; WE ARE NOT. Instead we have yet another case of ISRAEL breaking peace and withdrawal agreements, in this case UNSC resolution 425. Yet Drew and others insist that it is Arab aggression that has led to the major invasions by Israel. Farsical!! And all of this was in reprisal for massive lobbing of Katusha rockers into northern Israel by the PLO, was it, Your, Face? Please show us the UNIFIL reports which confirm that it was PLO actions that started the Israeli adventures into Lebanon. Here, let me illustrate how things worked back then: That is called tit-for-tat. But please note how the typical cycle started. Israel was messing about in Lebanese territory again. Right? So what was the usual last step? And all that you provide of this typical tit-for-tat cycle, Face, Your, is to repeat the official Zionist version that the PLO were the bad guys lobbing rockets on northern Israel. Please, try to have a little more respect for historical fact, and check (like I do) before you repeat the standard Zionist Mantras. We will soon see a very similar case in late 2008. Nonetheless thank you for enabling me to add the 1980/1981 “series” to the invasions by Israel.
Face, Your, would you care to show us where the UNIFIL observer force registered these 240 attacks by the PLO on Israel launched from Lebanon? Many thanks in anticipation. Oh, please, I mean UNIFIL reports, not some Smuel Katz site or Commentary Magazine. - - - Updated - - - Is that your excuse for what the Zionists did .... they were not yet Israel? Oy vey!!
