Why Australia should scratch the F-35 and fly Sukhois?

The F-35 Lighting was the first choice of the Australian air force. But several thunderbolts have struck the stealth aircraft, including the arrival of new generation Sukhois that are skewing the odds against the Australians.

Sometime by the middle of this year, Australia will have to make a stark choice. Its defences vulnerable and budget in tatters, the country will announce whether it will buy another squadron of 24 F-18 Super Hornets, or that Australia will stick with the original plan to buy 100 units of the F-35 Lightning – America’s joint strike fighter.

Trouble is neither option adds to the country’s security.

The reason, according to the Business Spectator is: “Indonesia plans to buy an incredible 180 of the Russian/Indian Sukhoi fighters, almost certainly including the PAK-FA T-50 and Su-35S. So the question is not whether the JSF is better than the outdated Hornet, but whether it is better than Indonesia’s Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA T-50 and Su-35S.”

Like much of what comes spinning out of the Australian media, the article is alarmist. But it offers a sound suggestion – instead of seeking advice from Australian and American military officials, who have staked their careers on the F-35, the defence ministry must get an informed and unbiased opinion from outside. As things stand now, Australia “will soon discover that the latest defence slogan – ‘first look, first shoot, first kill’ – works against the outmoded Hornet but not against the Sukhoi. The Sukhoi is just too good”.

The article adds: “For example, the JSF can operate effectively only to a maximum of around 40,000 feet (it can fly higher but loses operational impact at higher levels). By contrast the Sukhois can operate at full capacity at much higher levels and with that advantage they have systems and weapons that could blast an Australia JSF and its pilot out of the sky before they had a chance to ‘first look, first shoot, first kill’. No dogfight required.”

The Business Spectator offers a way out of this “heads we lose, tails we lose” dilemma. It suggests Australia either acquire the F-22 or its technology. The prescription is pretty close to what much of the Australian media and defence experts have been peddling. The only problem is they are peddling snake oil. Even if it were possible to borrow technology from the F-22 (made by a different company) and graft it on to the F-35, American law prevents the export of F-22 and its technology.

A re-look at Sukhoi

So what is Australia to do? According to the independent think tank New Australia, it should consider not just the Sukhoi Flanker but in future the PAK-FA. “We recommend that Australia enter an arrangement with Sukhoi similar to HAL in India to build either the Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker or Su-32 Fullback aircraft under licence in Australia. The current preference is Su-35S,” says New Australia.

“Sukhoi licenses the manufacture of Sukhoi planes and parts in several countries including India and China. Australia could buy the entire Sukhoi aircraft and build the avionics, consumables and weaponry locally. Many companies in Russia, Asia, Israel and Europe manufacture Sukhoi components. Sukhoi is ‘open source’.”

New Australia cites a study by Air Power Australia: “In strategic terms the Su-35S is a game changer, as it robustly outclasses all competing Western fighter aircraft other than the F-22A Raptor. Deployed in significant numbers it is capable of changing the balance of power in any region where this occurs. This reality does not appear to be widely understood in most Western air forces, or Department of Defence bureaucracies.”

Deal breaker or clincher

Australia is troubled mainly by Indonesia’s rise as a regional power, but in many circles India is also seen as a threat. This is perhaps because the antipodeans – who are sometimes more English than the queen – see India as the villain that brought down the British Empire.

In 1986, Australia made a lot of noises when India acquired its second aircraft carrier, the Virat. Again in 1998 when India tested five nuclear bombs, it withdrew its ambassador and in a fit of pique, pulled out an Indian military officer midway through his class in an Australian exchange programme.

While a string of former Australian prime ministers, led by Kevin Rudd, have taken a strong anti-India stance, there is another lobby led by the current premier Julia Gillard, who has tried to make amends.

In this backdrop, any decision on buying Russian jets will be influenced by which lobby carries the day. If India is seen as an ally, then the Australian military might look at the T-50. But if India is bracketed as a threat, that together with Indonesia’s purchases, will pave the way for the F-35. However, such a decision will send Australian’s defences and national budget into a tailspin.

Ballooning costs

Costs are clearly a concern as the F-35 is a programme that has run out of control. It is quite shockingly an aircraft that is more expensive than Australia. Yes, the programme will eventually tip over the $1.385 trillion mark, which is more than the Australian economy.

From Canberra’s point of view, each of these aircraft could end up costing US$238 million each, which is more than the price tag of US$60 million per plane when it first committed itself to the programme. Also, because the F-35 represents the latest in American defence tech, many of its parts will be off limits to Australians and will have to be flown to US bases or serviced by Americans flown in especially for the task. This will not only add to costs, it will increase down time.

Buying Sukhoi aircraft would, therefore, be a mission of mercy. New Australia says instead of buying 100 F-35s, Australia could get the job done with just 70 Sukhoi Super Flankers. And at just US$66 million per plane, it would prevent Australia’s over-stretched defence budget from snapping altogether.

Australia and Russia – Similar requirements

Russian aircraft are designed to overcome a uniquely Russian problem – covering its vast air space with limited aircraft. The Australian landmass is 4000 km wide, and the F-35 just doesn’t have the legs to cover that distance. The Su-35 has an effective range of about 4,000 km compared with about 2,200 for the JSF. This means the JSF would require air-tanker support to operate both within and outside Australia’s boundaries.

Speed – Bullet train vs slowcoach

The Su-35 is a Mach 2.4 (nearly two and half times the speed of sound) aircraft while the F-35 is limited to Mach 1.6. According to Victor M. Chepkin, the first deputy general director of NPO Saturn, the new AL-41F engines will allow Russian jets to supercruise – fly at supersonic speed for long distances. By not having to switch their afterburners on, aircraft are able to save a lot of fuel. Translation – non-supercruising fighters such as the F-35 and F-18s will be at a huge disadvantage against the Sukhois.

Stealth – Holes in the cloak

So obsessed were the aircraft’s designers with stealth that they ignored or sacrificed fighter basics such as range, payload and speed. The thinking was stealth alone would be enough to keep the JSF ahead of the pack. However, even as the Americans were perfecting stealth tech, the Russians were developing new combat techniques against it. They are now experimenting with new radar that can pick out stealth planes.


Colonel of Aviation Grigoriy “Grisha” Medved, a former Russian fighter pilot, says the worst part of the F-35 is a very hot engine – 160 Celsius hotter than standard combat jet engine exhaust. “It makes a very bright star in the sky and a long jet plume,” he says in a study for Air Power Australia.

Russia has adapted technology developed for detecting ICBM launches, to air combat fighters, says Medved. This technology enables Russian fighter pilots to see a standard fighter at about 50 km; by 2017 it will allow them to see stealth fighters at about 150 km. Because such radars are passive, the enemy will have no idea they are being watched.

In a dogfight, Medved notes an Su-35 can salvo a pair of missiles. The first, an active-radar-homing one, will force the F-35 pilot to take evasive action, exposing his beam-on radar cross section and exhausts to another (heat-seeking) shot.

Plus, with its large internal fuel load, the Su-35 can perform multiple attacks, launching missiles, turning hard to evade and then re-engaging. That is, play “cat and mouse” with the Aussies. The Sukhoi’s much better inventory of BVR (beyond visual range) missiles can then finish the job. As Medved says, “Run in for kill with R-73 or guns. No (F-35) can ever out-fly Sukhoi in knife fight.”

And, the colonel adds, with the PAK-FA coming, the F-35 “best stay home unless escorted by bigger brother.”

Whether bigger brother can accompany the F-35 is doubtful. “The cancellation of the F-22 will make Sukhoi aircraft the most capable production fighter planes available,” says New Australia. “It also marks a historic shift in air-power from the United States to Russia and the countries that use Russian defence technology.”

If you are in the Australian air force, you are on your own mate.


http://indrus.in/blogs/2013/04/08/why_australia_should_scratch_the_f-35_and_fly_sukhois_23629.html

 

A single F-35 can EASILY DESTROY 6 Su-35's as the F-35's ability to target the Su-35 at range well before the Su-35 even knows the F-35 is there gives the U.S. made aircraft enormous advantages.

AboveAlpha

 

Oh, please. Aussies are not going to buy Su-35 anyway, lobby won't allow that. All those squeals are about wanting F-22 instead of flying junk Penguin, also known as F-35.

 

F-35 is a total crap in comparison to Russian fighter.
It has ABSOLUTELY no chance to react to Russains that will press it down long before f-35 pilot ever has a possibilty to respond.

A welldone american freak to pump out money out of american state.

 

Yet the Russians here felt the need to come up with such a thread while the Americans really have no need to try and sell their wares....

 

You just go on thinking that.

Very much the same thing was said about how the Russian T-72 Tank would easily destroy the American M-1 Abrams back in the 1980's.

Well...we all know how THAT turned out. LOL!

AboveAlpha

 

The latest generation of Russian aeroplanes are enormously capable. The Russians have a long history of developing superb aircraft. Dismiss them at your peril.

 

Somebody has to do a favour to americans to coldwater their hubris.

 

Very much the same thing keep being said to Russians every 50 years during the last 1000 years.
You are underdeveloped and underdesigned and so on.

Well...we all know how it turned out.

 

Well in conflict your country will be the first to know so please keep us updated

 

I have NEVER implied that all Russian tech is crap. The Russians have designed and built some very impressive weapon systems over the years but with the advent of the fall of the Soviet Union allowed almost a decade of lag time for Russian designs and as of right now...they are well far behind in many areas tech wise.

AboveAlpha

 

Russia has not designed a fighter aircraft in the last 30 years that has been capable of defeating it's American counterpart.

As example the F-15 has been around for decades but when it went up against the very best and most modern Russian fighters in Bosnia....the Russian aircraft were blown out of the sky.

AboveAlpha

 

SU-35 and its many ramifications.

Another good thing arriving is PAK FA.

 

The U.S. Air Force is under a directive to have 50% of it's Fighter Aircraft...FULLY ROBOTIC by 2020.

Robotic Stealth Aircraft will have the ability to be fully autonomous as well Super Computing Flight Control and Target and Acquisitioning will allow such Robotic Aircraft to maneuver many times faster than Human controlled aircraft ever could be.

The Russians and Chinese are no where NEAR the level of Tech. necessary to design and build such aircraft.

AboveAlpha

 

I think it is safe to say that considering all the problems the F-35 has, and the fact Martin Lockheed is really making the pentagon second guess their funding for the project; Australia should probably get another jet fighter.

Look at the huge controversy the F-35 has garnered in Canada since the Harper Government committed to buying the aircraft back in 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_Canadian_procurement

 

Despite the current issues with the F-35...Lockheed has a good track record of fixing such issues.

As well...due to the Stealth abilities of the F-35....there is no other aircraft being produced for sale in the world that can match the F-35 in combat.

The F-35 can easily destroy 4 to 6 Su-35's or Eurofighters by itself.

These craft would be destroyed well before they even KNEW they were being targeted.

The Australian and Canadian Air Forces KNOW this and that is why they will wait.

AboveAlpha

 

I have talked about this with current and former Australian military personnel, they thing is interoperability with the rest of the air force, the Australian would have to do huge systems changes to support their main air defense jet operating with other aircraft, it just wouldn't be worth it. The is also the small issue of doing things with the US with Russian jets, I am not even sure of the Russians would be willing to sell to a US ally, over ever it is the Russian. A better option would be the Rafale or Typhoon.

 

Due to the fact that any conflict around or near Australia would most likely involve China or North Korea...and due to the fact that any such conflict would have the Australian Military and Air Force working with the U.S. Air Force and Navy....Australian F-35's would be placed under American Command and coupled with American Satellite and Radar system data as well as U.S. AWAC's.

Australia does not have the money to purchase large numbers of F-35's...but if it instead purchased the Eurofighter...even though it is much cheaper than the F-35...the Eurofighters survivability rate against large numbers of Chinese aircraft is a great extent lower than the F-35.

Even a number of Australian F-35's 50% lower than Australian Eurofighters would allow the Australian Air Force a greater KILL RATE and NUMBER as well having F-35's would allow the Australian Air Force CRAFT MISSION SURVIVABILITY...in that even upon engaging very large numbers of Chinese Aircraft...the F-35's could shoot and scoot or destroy Chinese Aircraft from a great distance...beyond the ability of the Chinese craft to see or detect the F-35's thus ensuring the survival of the Australian Aircraft.

If using DOUBLE the number of Eurofighters...the Australian Air Force would incur losses and no matter how good the loss to victory ratio might be...since the Australian Air Force would only have a limited number of aircraft...better to shoot down 24 Chinese Aircraft with 6 F-35's and incur ZERO LOSSES than shoot down 24 Chinese Aircraft with 12 Eurofighters and incur 2 losses.

AboveAlpha

 

I just don't see China and Australia having a war in which Australia is attack or invaded by mass waves of Chinese aircraft. There are only two direct threats to Australia, the US which Australia is allied with and Indonesia which can hardly hold itself together let alone think about attacking Australia. So since Australia isn't under that much of a direct threat, but is becoming a regional and wants to act a such, it is build 2 30,000 LHD's, 3 new AAW destroyers and having a active debate about nuclear powered submarines. Australia is taking up the policy of defensive power projection to warn of any protential Chinese threat and defend it's interests in the region. If you are Australia you will know doubt know all this.

One very key point made to me by the Australians is they would like a two engined jet for safty, Australia is a huge country with a very small population they don't want to lose pilots because one of their engine fails and they fall out the sky.

There is more the buying to aircraft to take into account, but spares, upkeep costs, fuel and so on. Well the UK is having both the Typhoon and F-35, the best combination out their. Australia should do the same, as should Canada in my view.

 

I understand the concerns over the two engines.

But the reality is buying double or more the number of Typhoons for half the number of F-35's will do nothing to increase the Australian Air Forces power.

In having F-35's...the Aussie Air Force has a STEALTH ATTACK/FIGHTER Aircraft that can destroy every existing aircraft in the sky save the F-22.

In mock combat...8 Typhoons were easily destroyed by a brace...2...F-35's.

So given this...it would be possible for Aussie F-35's to engage and destroy enemy aircraft at will and safely return home without loss.

AboveAlpha

 

canada would do well to stay away from the flying pig(f35)...one engine/safety, it isn't capable of long range arctic patrols without mid air refueling and our existing tankers can't refuel it...and it's only partially stealth...

and for what reason do we need these usper pigs? is china going to steal our ice? are we going to invade anyone?...if we need to defend ourselves SAMs are cheaper... and realistically any country that has the capability to invade us will roll over us in a day or two regardless of the 65 proposed F35's, day one of any attack would see the two F35 bases destroyed by cruise missiles...absolutely stupid waste of money...

 

As far as Canada is concerned they should only buy a limited number of F-35's given the Arctic Cold.

But let's be realistic. Canada will....NEVER BE INVADED...except by DRUNK AMERICAN'S who cross the boarder going to St. Catherine Street in Montreal! LOL!

Canada is part of the North American Defense net and NOBODY would chance going to WAR with the United States by starting S#!% with Canada.

AboveAlpha

 

and for what imaginary reason would China or NK want to attack Australia?? and then there is the little problem of distance North Koreas best bomber has 2k combat range, a problem as australia is 4.5K away...

 

Sukhois are like MiGs. They require enormous amounts of maintenance, and suffer unexpected airframe breakups.

 

the only country that ever threaten to invade and actually invade canada is the united states, I don't fear russian chinese or N koreans none have a track record of imperialist aggression to match the USA... if canada is invaded again it will be by the usa...