Note; One of the most difficult things to do in a forum sitting is to write an brief thread when the subject is advanced or complicated! When that is combined with my style of writing (longgggg) it makes for a hard to stay awake piece! If anyone can make it through the thread completely I would like to have your comment as long as its civil. Why does God allow pain and suffering? The problem of pain, as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheisms most potent weapon against the Christian faith. All true science and history, if rightly understood, support the fact of God. This evidence is so strong that, as the Bible says: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God (Psalm 14:1). Most atheists, therefore, who claim a paradigm of reality where no God or Gods exit must resort finally to philosophical objections to the claims that God indeed does exist ! The problem of pain and suffering is one of the easiest ways for atheists to attempt to forbid Gods existence. However there are explanations as to why God allows or maybe even causes man to experience pain etc. Early on when I first converted to Christianity from atheism I struggled with the question of why God would allow pain and suffering death and destruction in his creation. Many traditional theists would say earth and man is enduring Gods wrath for the sins of Adam and Eve. I do not agree with that interpretation. My take on the problem of pain and suffering in a universe created by God is different. I decided that a lifetime on earth with its good and bad i.e. the pain and suffering is unavoidable because its the only way the clean slate (when we are born, ie an infant) can learn those kinds of lessons. Our earthly life may be a near 70+ or - year spiritual university course where our consciousness learns skills necessary to be an eternal. Combined with our Bachelors and Masters Degree i.e. our acceptance of Jesus Christ is required, for it washes our sin away so that God can receive us which grants us an spiritual PhD. There is scriptural evidence that indicate we may be like God in the afterlife, the creator of universes, for that we need all of the 70 year degree. (thats about how long it took to get my masters degree!) What is a even a lifetime of suffering compared to an eternity of euphoria of being one with God? I have no scriptural evidence for a hypothesis that I have been toying around with for months. Very briefly the idea consists of cutting edge ideas of cosmology and mathematics (string theory*) and even quantum theory**. I feel that maybe each of us creates a universe as we go along in life beginning with our first conscious thought. The only real thing is ourselves. In other words the universe is a construct, the is pain and suffering etc. of others occur in another dimension. For those not familiar with popular theoretical physics I am sure my ideas would be a wacky far out idea. However to those that read popular scientific literature or even those that are scientists my ideas may seem vaguely familiar. That is because reputable science theories such as the infinite or Many Worlds Interpretation MWI*** suggest that there are fourteen to an infinite number of dimensions where every conceivable thing is happening in one of them. In fact my hypothesis dovetails into the MWI, because the evil pain, suffering and such things would actually exist in other dimensions! That means that only ourselves would experience and hopefully learn the difficult lessons needed to receive eternal life. Lastly the why of pain and suffering may not be explained in any of the above! It could be that we can never know some things and that we must take on faith that God is ultimately good. Just like a concerned parents watching their child endure excruciating, severely painful series of rabies shots they know that the shots will save the child , God knows we by enduring this life with its pain and suffering while accepting God and Jesus Christ will save our eternal lives. Without the life saving albeit painful shots the child would die ergo without enduring pain and suffering of this life and accepting God, we (out soul) too would die. Rev A ** quantum theory is utilized because according to one interpretation an sentient observer actually changes reality by observing an object which forces the wave function to collapse, which seals its destiny on a micro scale. Consciousness and Quantum Physics - Journal of Cosmology Some unsettling monadological consequences of this view are brought out in the ... Consistent with the principles of quantum physics Schrӧdinger's cat seems to be in a ... There is no place for the phenomenal cat in quantum physics itself--that cat right there in the box, .... In Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. http://Plato. ... Is consciousness an epiphenomenal happenstance of this particular universe? Or does the very concept of a universe depend upon its presence? Does consciousness merely perceive reality, or does reality depend upon it? Did consciousness simply emerge as an effect of evolution? http://journalofcosmology.com/Consciousness116.html *** Infinite Universe Theory dimensions and eternal? This paper explores that possibility by contrasting the Big Bang Theory (BBT) with its logical opposite, the Infinite Universe Theory (IUT) ... http://scientificphilosophy.com/Downloads/IUT.pdf Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (Stanford ... Mar 24, 2002 ... The Many-Worlds Interpretation (MWI) is an approach to quantum mechanics according to which, in addition to the world we are aware of http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-manyworlds/ Rev A
I watched and interfaith discussion about human suffering and about catastrophic events in general.. and whether or not they were punishment from a wrathful God. Specifically.. earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, tsunamis, volcanoes.... The conclusion was that God created the earth and laws of nature and set that in motion.. It works as it should.. The God part comes in based on our being created in the image of God... and therefore our response to our fellow man after a catastrophic event was either godlike or not. Does that in part answer your question about pain and suffering?
This is the first I've heard of this idea. I have to admit that it's preferable to the idea that were paying the wages for sins that occurred in the beginning, or that our suffering is simply the wrath of a jealous and angry God. But it still leaves questions unanswered. For example, whats the point in a newborn in Africa dying of malnutrition? Or a child dying in a suicide bomb somewhere in the M.E., And simply what's the point in first running humans through the gauntlet of existence as a prerequisite to entering an eternal paradise? Why not get to dessert first?
Luke 13: 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Deism eh? I do not have traditional views about God slinging lighting bolts from heaven. I am somewhat a deist feeling that God designed the universe to run on natural laws, only tweaking the system when absolutely necessary*. By that I do think God can intervene with natural disasters and such but its rare. However the level of design is difficult to envision. One of the early tweaks was that God allowed the universe to go against nearly impossible odds and be lumpy instead of smooth energy. The odds against a lumpy universe was ten to the one hundred and twenty third power according to calculations by Penrose! Most physicists would say the ten to the 'ten to the one hundred and twenty third power' figure would make an event for all practical purposes statistically Impossible*. It would be like, well there is nothing in the natural world to compare it to! Let's just say it would be like being at a casino and getting dealt a hundred black jack hands mercifully your hands consist of an ace of spades and a Jack of spades, every time in series every day 24/7 for a lifetime! It is my opinion that God also knows to a very high degree of probability what the universe will do right down to what decision each individual human will make in his or her lifetime, but not to an accuracy of 100%. If that were the case we free will could not exist. * Fascinatingly, even if the probability is zero an event may occur. This happens when there are infinitely many possible outcomes, sound familiar? I do not agree. It is an alternate position, one that I can not fully agree to. Rev A
http://www.theevidence.org/article.php?id=77 If God is Love, why does he allow natural disasters.. Transcript at the link... also video. Two scholars and a Rabbi.
Yes I believe that as well, I feel we are cursed by the sins of Adam and Eve, but maybe it is a curse of something like bad DNA. In that way the bad seed would be passed generation to generation. that is one of the only ways I could agree with the concept of a curse. God is righteously vengeful IMO, and does have human like emotions, however God is not sadistic, at least not the God that I know and love. I did address it maybe you did not understand what I suggested which is to be expected when trying to put these concepts into words! Anyway, I said ; (my) "hypothesis dovetails into the MWI, because the evil pain, suffering and such things would actually exist in other dimensions! (as per string theory derived theories of infinite dimensions/universes) That means that only ‘ourselves’ would experience and hopefully learn the difficult lessons needed to receive eternal life". What I mean by that is that the outside world that we navigate thorugh is either a extra dimention and not real, at least in our universe. The reason we do not get to go through the pearly gates first in my opinion is that when born we are a clean slate, we have a lifetime of lessons to learn. The lessons are required for several reasons, one is that we too will be like Gods, able to create universes as per scripture. That is an unbelievable responsibility, and it takes exceedingly strong morals and knowledge. There are others but you get the picture eh? However if we flunk the final exam i.e. accepting Jesus as our savior, it's no cake, no passing thru' the pearly gates to be one with God, no nothing save for Sheol which is the grave. I hope that helped? ~ Rev A
I will check out the link. I do not do vids as references but will check out the font ha ha~ (the Transcript). I try to keep an open mind, I hope when I am 80, if God allows me that much even then I wouldnt want to have a closed mind, closed to anything, thats because a closed mind is intellectual death. Rev A
True science does not support any god. There is no scientific evidence for any god. It's like everyone nowadays thinks that sticking quantum physics into any argument somehow validates their argument, from homeopathy to the existence of a god.
LOLOLOL.. you mean a smidgen of quantum physics? I posted a link earlier. http://www.theevidence.org/article.php?id=77 If God is Love, why does he allow natural disasters.. Transcript at the link... also video. Two scholars and a Rabbi.
I cannot prove that there is no God of course, but I believe our suffering is simply due being able to perceive suffering. We're animate, thinking, feeling, and we try to maintain stability within an inherently chaotic reality which we ultimately have little to no control over. We get attached to things (material possessions, people, ideas, emotions, etc) which inevitably slip from our grasp. That causes suffering. We're subject to physical suffering which we have little control over such as freak accidents, "acts of God", genetic and contagious disease, random violence, old age, death, etc. This chaos and unpredictability is a characteristic of the universe we exist in, and we're fully subject to it.
Why does God allow pain and suffering? Passes the time? He looks at American fundamentalism and knows they deserve it? Probably because He has Free Will though.
The Problem of Evil; Either a god or gods ate evil for allowing pain and suffering or such an entity does not exist.
The link I posted earlier.. is a discussion among religious scholars. God doesn't alter the laws of nature...
The answer lies in many worlds interpretation, of course. The children only appear to suffer in this dimension, - in all others they are as happy as pigs in mud. Problem solved, RevAnarchist gets to sleep at night.
Why does the Christian/Islamic god(s) allow horrific, brutal, pain and suffering, with no end in sight (when he of course has the ability to put an immediate end to it)? a. He's morally warped...in which case we should despise him, and not love him, and leave theism ASAP, OR b. He simply doesn't exist like they say he does, so all current religions are a bogus attempt to increase the power/money/sex of the founder....you've been fooled by a con man, folks. If your 7 year old niece were suddenly god, would she end brutal pain and suffering? "No, of course not, FreedomSeeker, she'd continue with the horrific, brutal, pain and suffering!" Uh, of course she would end it. No moral being wouldn't. So if your 7 year old niece is better than your so called "all powerful god", then he probably doesn't really exist, obviously. If you can't see that then you're probably a person who would give your own kids a book that mentions unicorns in it no less than 10 times, and say it's the greatest book of all time, with a straight face...some consider that child abuse.
The above are examples of human caused suffering. The newborn in Africa dying of malnutrition is the victim of some oppressive government or group that is either blocking food or causing policies that result in famine. The death by suicide bomber is even more clearly from human actions.
True science also cannot support the nonexistence of God. The issue of God or not is not a scientific one, and cannot be examined by scientific means.
I think it can, though, cast very grave doubts on the notion of free will, which looms large in such discussions as this. The muscles, I gather, are moving before the brain 'decides' to move. Just a thought.
The most powerful weapon against the Christian faith? lol Why do Christians think they are being picked on? The problem referred to in the OP is also referred to as the Problem of Evil. One example among many of a formulation of the problem of evil is often attributed to Epicurus[9] and may be schematized as follows: If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not. There is evil in the world. Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist. This argument is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent). In this case, P is "God exists" and Q is "there is no evil in the world". Since it is unclear precisely how the antecedent of the first premise of "Epicurus" argument entails the consequent, later philosophers have offered refinements such as:[2] God exists. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists. Evil exists (logical contradiction). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
