Why isn't Libertarianism more popular?

This is our system in a nutshell.
Why, corps are our friends. They give us jobs. They provide for our well being. Without corps we'd all be lost trying to make a go of it for ourselves.
Some call is fascism, some crony capitalism. Depends on who one thinks is pulling the puppet strings.

 

Libertarianism smacks too much of amorality or immorality. THAT is why it isn't more popular with Conservatives.

It's not popular with Liberals because while it does share the same low sense of morality (as pointed out in the similarity of names LIBERalism LIBERtarianism), it includes too many Conservative views.

Ron Paul and John Stossel are the two libertarians I hear the most. Many of the views they espouse are so non-common sensical and unfeasible, Libertarianism just comes off sounding kooky. Kind of like a fairly harmless cult.

LIBERtarianism and LIBERalism spend too much time dwelling in Idealville, not realizing some of the differences between what is feasible now and what won't be feasible for another 20-200 years.

 

They aren't our friends. They're the ones who corrupted the system to begin with.

They're simply a means to an end, just like we are to them.

This isn't a "friendly" arrangement by any stretch, since the majority of our interactions are based on what we get out of each other.

 

Fair enough. But the nations that called themselves Communist at one time were about a third of the planet. Which ones were the successful ones?

 

Actually, no country has ever based its philosophy on the premise I believe in. That is that investing in science and technology is the most important solution to economic growth. All countries should be better off than they are, but if I had to choose, maybe Switzerland. I don't like your argument that just because it hasn't been tried before means it doesn't work.

Like I said, some type of merit based system would be best but that would probably have to be set up by a good leader in the first place. I guess we're just going to have to get lucky and hope good leaders rise to power, whether that be through voting or some other type of system. Average people are too stupid to make decisions regarding government, which is why I don't like democracies or republics. I want a government that will allocate as much funds as possible to research and development. I don't care if it is a monarchy, a democracy, libertarian, socialist, or capitalist.

 

My parents did not have a problem with the "crappy" economic system. They were unhappy with the lack of freedom. They still live very austerely. They were unhappy with the spying, the prohibition (or attempted in Poland) of their religion, etc.

 

Fine. So where is the example of what you believe, having worked for a long period of time?

So you prefer dictatorships and control of the masses by a few. And if those who come into that kind of power have views that are diametrically opposed to yours?
All of us are smarter than any of us.

 

Because, imo, those who advocate libertarianism SEVERELY underestimate the number of people in this country who are able to take advantage of the personal liberty thang. Given the choice between bread and personal liberty, most people opt for bread.

 

What if you do question government authority and find it to be perfectly legitimate? I mean, since it is OUR government 'n all.

 

Ain't that the gawdawful truth?

 

I think the problem stems more from brainwashing than from logic. The first step is to break the brainwashing of governments that suggest that if government doesn't do something, it doesn't happen. While that's the story, it's not true. Family or tribal power, religion, markets, or even a strong journalist could reign in a bad actor. If the guy owns a business, it's as simple as not spending money there. If the guy is a bad neighbor, perhaps other neighbors could work together to convince him to behave. Or they could remove his rights to religious services. All of these solutions would work, but you don't need a government to play God. You don't need to have the government rescue you, and in more cases than not, a government rescuing you means that you WILL pay the price eventually. Sooner or later, the same government that slapped your neighbor will slap you for your neighbor. The government that protects you from "pollution" can easily come after you for other offenses against someone's sensibility.

Yes libertarianism is "nonsensible" to a man who attended a government school and grows up in a world where everything is inspected and he's been trained to think that anything without a government stamp is poisonous. That's the system you're raised with. Everything is signed and stamped approved by Government who cares for you and solves all your problems. We've been trained to think that way, starting with the kid that learns to play "red light green light" so as better to obey Daddy Government's traffic laws, to when he goes to Daddy Government's schools where he is trained to obey authority without question, to dreaming of reaching the golden age of 16, when he can get the permission of Daddy Government to drive a Government Approved Motor Vehicle. Does any of that sound like reason?

Maybe the libertarians aren't right about there being absolutely no government but i think we need to cut back at least 75% so as we can regain our abilities to take care of ourselves and get back to building a future rather than spending half of our day trying to fill out forms to prove that we're not breaking government rules, while the government stands ready to take half our income. A government that does about 10% of what ours does now would solve that issue.

 

Finally a fairly reasonable paragraph. I too think we need to cut both government and regulation significantly. Just not to the degree you do. Therefore you will label me a brainwashed, conformists, statist who never questions authority. Which I'm not. But LOTS of Libertarians do love to tell anyone not praying before their particular alter, that they are heretics.

 

Why isn't Libertarianism more popular?

A: Spoiler mentality.

 

It would build a case for socialism or communism if the leaders realized that. Switzerland is full of bankers, and for some reason, they decide to pay bankers more than someone who actually makes products. I don't think any country has ever been run very well, so just because I favor 1 capitalist country doesn't mean anything. There are some good socialist countries to live in such as Norway and Qatar, but Norway is too cold and I don't know much about Qatar. I think the best form of government is a socialist country who will invest in research and development, not a welfare socialist country. It depends on what your definition of opressive and tyrannical is, but if every socialist, communist, or monarchy has been opressive, so has every capitalist or democracy.

 

Neither Norway nor Qatar are socialist. Really, there are many Socialist countries left. China, during its' most oppressive era, was definitely socialist. Cuba, N. Vietnam and N. Korea are about it. I guess India used to be close to a Socialist Democratic Republic but they're full on capitalist nowadays - as is evidenced by the fact that so many of our jobs are there now.

What would I mean by oppressive? In the Soviet Union, about 1% of the population lived like kings. 5 - 10% lived well. About 90% of the population could not change jobs if they wanted. Often went without heat, were given a ration of 1 kilo or less meat per month, lived on the equivalent of $3 dollars American per day. They could be imprisoned for praying in public and tens of thousands of people were imprisoned for no other reason that religious beliefs.Oh, if you don't like the job the government has chosen for you, you better know the right person or you don't get to switch. It was worse for the former CIS countries like The Ukraine.
In India the average wage has improved since they increased the level of capitalism. The average wage is now up to $2 American per day.
In China, things have gotten better since they embraced "semi-capitalism". Now over 200,000,000 people live on less than $1 American per day - which is an improvement from where they were. The government ministers own a part of virtually every private enterprise so they get rid of those pesky regulations and such. That's why so many people wear face masks and Clean Air vending machines are found all over the place.

So every capitalist or democracy is oppressive? How many have you lived in? If only the USA, how are you oppressed?

 

But that equation was made by a libertarian above, not by me.

 

No, you are brainwashed. You literally cannot concieve of a way to curb pollution without regulations?

Fine. How about people find out that a factory making Acme shoes is dumping waste into the river. I like the Queen, let's make it the Thames. OK, so how might we solve this? Well, on the economic side, once the news is well known, people probably would be less inclined to buy those shoes. He's punished in the marketplace. On the religious side, there are cases in history where kings have been brought to heel on the threat of excommunication. The reason for the Anglican church was exactly this type of pressure brought on Henry. He wasn't allowed to divorce and the church wasn't going to back down. His only option was a state church, the Anglican church. That kind of pressure couldn't work as well? Or perhaps people would take our factory owner to court for the violence of killing off the fishing and tourist trades? It's not that such solutions are not out there, the problem is mostly that people are too lazy to handle the problem without lobbying congress for yet more rules.

Or are you going to tell me that you actually believe that if it was widely reported that a certain brand of beef was making people sick, that no one would avoid buying that beef? It happens all the time. In fact, a lot of people have sworn off Pepsi because it's reported that Pepsi contracted a company to develop a new flavor of soda using fetal tissue. Some people don't like that, and they don't buy Pepsi.

 

Hmmm. So Pepsi doesn't exist anymore, right? Because the Magic Market makes all bad things go away! Odd. I thought I saw Pepsi on the shelf just today....

And you call other people brainwashed? That's um, special.

 

Its the same as asking why is it, when we all talk about how bad war is, are people so willing to push and defend it? People are ignorant, simple as that. Education and information are the keys to a well functioning society.

 

Look at China before they turned socialist. I'd say they made huge strides during the socialist years. The same thing with the Soviet Union. And I already talked about why China has grown at a fast rate recently. It has to do with trade being opened up with the U.S. Qatar and Norway are more socialist than most other countries and have very high GDP per capita. The U.S. had slavery for quite a while. Up until the 1960's, large groups of blacks were oppressed. If the past doesn't count, who is to say the Soviet Union wouldn't get better? If I try to overthrow the U.S. government, I'll get put in jail. Does that mean I'm oppressed? Also, the U.S. starts wars with other countries and kills millions. And what about the Communists in the U.S. who were arrested and deported? There were some gallup polls back in the 30s-50s that said the majority of people believed Communists should be put in jail or killed. It also said 97% of people believed in freedom of speech, but only about 25% did if it had to do with Communism. The U.S. definitely has a long history of oppression. Over half of people in the U.S. don't like their jobs. There is a lot of oppression in the workplace as well.

Do you count not allowing people to vote as a form of oppression? If you do, then I am oppressed because I am almost always in the minority.

 

Not really, since education teaches you to be ignorant.

 

War can be ugly and necessary at the same time.

A well functioning society is only desirable if it's function is consistent with a person's own goals. Allowing folks the personal liberty to question a societies direction might make it's function less smooth, but that's not a bad exchange for having society move in a better direction.​

 

Most of your post ignores the facts I brought up so there is really little to respond to. For example, I point out that Socialist China has gotten better because now over 200,000,000 people live on less than a dollar a day. The government ministers own most of private industry and the result is a toxic environment and so on. They don't even get to vote. Crticism of the government such as you have made on this thread, will get you in jail for years.
And you call yourself oppressed because you are allowed to vote and the majority happen disagree with you? That's "oppressed" eh? yeah okay.
Have you lived anywhere outside the USA before?

 

Well yeah, it depends on what kind of education. I guess a "real" education is one that simply teaches you to think critically alongside giving you basic information, ie English language classes, mathematics, science, a bit of history etc. I realize their is a fine line between most 'education' and 'indoctrination', but I think if you can teahc people to think critically, without hesitation or restraint, you can create a healthy minded electorate.