Why the angst over firearms.

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by nra37922, Feb 2, 2014.

  1. Defender of Freedom

    Defender of Freedom Member

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    Interesting, but I think there is more too it than just location. I do not think that it is guns, video games, and location as the cause of killers. I think that some of those parents knew that there kids were psychologically unstable, yet they were allowed to play violent games at a young age. For people like you and me, this would be no problem, but with someone who cannot effectively differentiate between reality and virtual reality, it is a problem. I do not think regulation is the answer.
     
  2. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    Seems kind of lazy for you to make a claim (that drowning is more of a risk) and then expect me to disprove it...
    That being said, I did find the below link that illustrates that 16,404,000 kids between the ages of 7 and 17 were actively involved in swimming as a recreational activity during the last year for which stats were available.
    That doesn't include the 4,241,000 that were involved in boating, the 6,654,000 fishermen, the 1,040,000 water skiiers, or any kids under the age of 7.

    In the same timeframe, only 7,257,000 were involved in any form of shooting (including air guns, which may or may not be relevant to our discussion).

    http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1249.pdf
     
  3. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    Who said anything about not holding criminals accountable?

    Please illustrate how requiring a background check, or ensuring you actually know how to use a firearm would be infringing on your rights.

    Oh yes, the mythical "black market" that magically grants every kid who commits a crime instant access to a shadowy network of international smugglers that nobody else knows about... :roll:

    "Black market" firearms are just those that are sold to criminals, most often as part of a straw purchase. In other words, friends and family who can pass a background check purchase the firearm and then sell it to someone who has a criminal record... That's how most firearms enter "the black market". If we could stop straw purchases by identifying and punishing the straw purchasers who enable the supply, we'd drastically reduce the ability of criminals to get firearms.

    Great, let's do that. But while implementing measures that only take effect after the damage has been done, let's also impact the ability for the crime to occur in the first place.
     
  4. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    You don't think there were gangs during the 16th 17th and 18th centuries?
    Seriously, read a history book sometime. In the meantime, this link should give you an idea of how bad gang violence was in early America. http://www.sagepub.com/upm-data/43455_1.pdf

    Here's some info on a few specific gangs:
    http://www.longislandwins.com/news/detail/the_know_nothings_from_triumph_to_collapse
    http://www.bbcamerica.com/copper/blog/the-bowery-boys-one-of-the-toughest-gangs-of-new-york/

    Actually, whether a country is first-world or third-world has nothing to do with race, it's about economic and socio-political factors... Similarly, whether a country is a democracy also has nothing to do with race...
    My insistance on comparing first-world democracies with other first-world democracies is therefore about comparing "apples to apples" rather than comparing us solely to third-world countries with which we have nothing in common. Duh.

    A) that's a Argumentum ad populum (bandwagon argument), and is therefore invalid.
    B) when did I ever say there should be less punishment for violent felons?
     
  5. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    Straw man. If you operate a vehicle irresponsibly but stay on your own property, you're pretty unlikely to run over your neighbor. The same can't be said for a firearm.
     
  6. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    You are the one who wants the same regs for both. I'm pointing out the law. No strawman there.
     
  7. OrlandoChuck

    OrlandoChuck Well-Known Member

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    Who said anything about not holding criminals accountable? I did. Currently, our justice system is a revolving door for violent criminals. If these low lives were held properly accountable, they would not repeat their offenses, and it would make a huge impact on the crime stats.

    I would like to illustrate how requiring private sale background checks would infringe on my 2nd amendment rights. These background checks can only be achieved by creating a database of gun owners. So what you are really advocating is "gun registration". Current law prohibits this. Gun registration is an infringement of my constitutional rights. But I don't need to tell you this, you already know, you just don't care.
     
  8. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    I'm obviously not proposing a direct copy/paste, as there is an inherent difference about their use on private property (ie: the risk level to those off the property).
     
  9. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    Yup, because locking people up after they have committed a crime is a very effective means of crime deterrence... That explains why the countries with the highest incarceration rates in the world have such low rates of murder...

    Oh, wait... we already have the highest rate or incarceration in the world, to the point that our prison system is operating at 39% over capacity (as of 2011).
    http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/02/u-s-prison-population-seeing-unprecedented-increase/
    ..and we still have the highest per-capita violent crime rate.
    https://www.stanford.edu/group/scspi/slides/ViolentCrime.pdf

    I guess facts keep getting in the way of that rhetoric.

    The way I understand it, the concept of a registration being unconstitutional is as a result of Haynes v. U.S. 390 U.S. 85 (1968).

    Basically, registration is an issue because a person who has a gun illegally would be forced to incriminate themselves by reporting the weapon, or else face additional charges. In short, registration is "unconstitutional" because it might "violate the 5A rights" of criminals. I didn't realize you were that big a supporter of the rights of criminals.
     
  10. Dispondent

    Dispondent Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Guns in the hands of individuals does not necessarily mean they have to use them against the government to ensure their freedoms. How many Waco's can a government afford? Particularly if they were perpetrated against seemingly normal Americans...
     
  11. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    I have said time and time again these people need to be looked into. Lying on a 4473 is a FELONY in and of itself, and I'd wager that a large majority of those declined had mom or a friend get them a gun anyway.
     
  12. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    And how is this resolved by supporting the status quo that makes it easy for those violent criminals to get firearms?

    Let's say you're correct and that private sale background checks could only be completed in conjunction with registration - despite the fact that background checks by licensed dealers prove this to be untrue...

    Please illustrate how registration would prevent you from owning a firearm.
     

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