The End of Abortion in America is Coming Soon

Translation: """Stumped again, I just can't answer those pertinent but inconvenient questions"""....

 

This is truly remarkable because it seems that you are claiming that a person who has had an abortion is not allowed to have an opinion different from yours. How generically pro choice of you.

The notion that misogyny motivates people to be against abortion is an absurd myth that has no hypothetical basis, much less one in reality.

These people are victims of fallacious Liberal reasoning that asserts its opposition are all religious fanatics and misogynists who want to create laws that our society doesn't allow, even while many similar laws are on the books and enforced every day. My advice to those people is that all laws are the result of one person enforcing his morals on another. There are unrepetent murderers who don't think murder is wrong. We don't respect their rights to their beliefs. We don't have to.

If these policies are effective at preventing abortion, but also wreck society in worse ways by perpetuating a welfare class that will never be capable of providing for itself, then no, you won't have many takers. This is because many people who oppose abortion do so out of a general belief in personal responsibility.

 

That's not what I'm claiming at all. My point is that when a woman is opposed to abortion on moral grounds, but then gets one for herself because "the only moral abortion is my abortion," she is conflicted in her beliefs or dishonest about her motives.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/...oral-abortion-is-MY-abortion-by-Joyce-Arthur#

Sorry, abortion opposition based on misogyny is quite real, quite apparent in anti-abortion rhetoric by many, and even promoted by patriarchal religions.

Oh, but otoh, pro-lifers are never influenced by "fallacious (conservative) reasoning" that asserts its opposition are all godless, immoral "baby-killers," or in your case, fetus killers?

There is an overwhelming consensus that murder is wrong. Your belief that abortion is wrong is not even the belief of the majority, because the majority of Americans believe Roe v. Wade should be upheld.

That is only a feeble excuse, and it doesn't fly if your highest priority is "saving unborn lives." Helping women control their reproduction so that they are better able to get an education or a job does NOT perpetuate a welfare class. Helping women control their reproduction enables women to be better parents AND reduces the abortion rate.

 

I like how "pro-lifers" really show their true stripes in a food stamp, school lunch program or Head Start thread.

That's where we see how much they really care about the chillens.

 

It seems Patriot News doesn't have the intellectual honesty to answer a few simple questions. Can any of the "pro-life, anti-abortion" posters on this thread answer them?

1. Are YOU going to ban contraception for anyone 18 years and older? How will you enforce that?
2. Are YOU going to provide jobs for all the unwanted children born later in life?
3. Are YOU going to provide living wage jobs for all the teenage women to support them raising their unwanted kids?
4. Are YOU going to vote for an increase in welfare/assistance programs for all above mentioned folks?
5. Are YOU going to advocate a "property of the military" law for all these unwanted children born?
6. EXACTLY WHAT IS YOUR PLAN FOR THESE WOMEN AND TO BE BORN CHILDREN ONCE YOU TOTALLY OUTLAW ABORTIONS?
7. Are you going to legally penalize men for NOT wearing condoms when they have sex out of wedlock, or are "poor" yet married and having kids?

 

This is typical human behavior. People make mistakes. Justify their own and condemn others harshly for theirs. All I want is for women to find another way to cope. Killing it is wrong. Maybe it's none of my business, but I can't just pretend it's ok.

I'm sure it must seem that way to someone who automatically defines anyone who opposes abortion as a misogynist.

What is fallacious about "fetus killer"? Are we now going to debate whether or not it is a fetus? I'm not sure how a subiective opinion on morality uses logic at all, except when ethics models are proposed, which, as established, can be used to justify anything. Fallacious reasoning includes claiming a type of law can't be made when several like it already exist and declaring that abortions must either be murder or perfectly fine since there can be no moderates.


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I believe that this is due to fallacious reasoning presented by the left. I could be wrong and I can live with that.

So name the ideas that reduce abortion rates. I may very well support them, not that my opinion means much.

 

Having an abortion is not a mistake, it's a conscious decision. Some people have decided it's immoral for others but moral for themselves.

But you can't explain why it's wrong...

I didn't say that, but...those who oppose abortion think women are second class citizens, which is disrespect for them, if not hatred.

You would lose. The majority of abortions are performed within 8 weeks, which is the embryonic stage.

No one can be forced by law to use their bodies to save another person, so specifically, what existing laws do you mean?

Not all abortions are legal in the US, so that is moderate.

Specifically, what "fallacious reasoning"? That women should be in charge of their own bodies?

Legislation doesn't reduce abortion rates and criminalizes women who believe they have the right to bodily autonomy and human dignity. Easily accessible contraception and sex education are the only policies proven to reduce abortions.

 

Yes, that is typical human behavior. Many examples of people simply having their consciouses shocked at the thought of it. As you say, even some fetus killers still feel that it's wrong. Seems to me a lot of people do.

I could explain why anything is right and wrong, but it would all be semantics built around an unproveable underlying assumption that attempts to define right and wrong, which all ethics discussion is. Not sure why you keep repeating the question, as I have addressed it. If I am being honest, I don't know why anything is right or wrong.

It's just weird that so many people, even women, feel bad about abortions and feel that it is wrong when it's actually a ok and anyone who has those bad feelings actually just hates women. It's weird that something sick that a certain sex seems to do has to be legal because that sex can do no wrong.

Call it whatever you want. Do I appear interested in semantics? Call it a goo sack. I am against goo sack killings and feel it can be made illegal under standing court interpretations of the Constitution if the same standards were not tossed aside to make special room for abortion. I'm not trying to fool anyone with semantics. You know exactly what I mean.

The law would be against killing the goo sack. Just like having sex is not signing up to get pregnant, preventing the goo sack killing is not forcing her to stay pregnant.

A person can just think that killing the goo sack is wrong and can be made illegal because of that, but not consider it punishable as murder.

I named some specific examples already. False dilemma, ad hominem,... uhh the one where you make false legal claims because you know most people don't know much about the law (can't remember the name of that fallacy). I will point them out as presented to me, but you really won't need fallacies, since you truly think abortion is a ok. The fallacies are meant to dupe the people who would otherwise be compelled to act on their own sense of right and wrong. That's why you'll tend to use them on me, even though they aren't necessary to your own beliefs.

No amount of sex education will ever make having sex with a piece of latex as great as the real thing. But I support both in general.

Perhaps if our criminal justice system in general were less punitive and focused more on rehabilitation and education for nonviolent crimes, the thought of abortion being illegal wouldn't seem so undignified.

 

There is nothing more "undignified" than losing your right to bodily autonomy and human dignity.



You: """Perhaps if our criminal justice system in general were less punitive and focused more on rehabilitation and education for nonviolent crimes""


"if" just doesn't cut the mustard.


How do you plan to "rehabilitate and educate" a woman who had an abortion?


How do you plan to make abortion illegal by simply claiming it's "wrong".........I think you'll need a lot more than that flimsy reason....

 

Aren't you reading straight! It's the END of abortion, not the start!

 

Excuse me, when did abortion end?

 

I don't really plan to make abortion illegal. My only plan is to watch closely the people who lack the internal sense of morality to understand right and wrong since, without morals, they may be capable of justifying any horrible act.

At the end of the day, I can only protect myself and my family, if indeed society has irreversibly determined that it deems abortion either ok or not punishable. But I won't go along with it and I'll never pretend that it's ok or that a person would not have to be garbage to even consider it. A willing surrenderer of her own dignity.

 

It's a shame no one on the badly named "Pro-Life" side can answer your questions....

 

Pro-life is the anti-abortion movement. Perhaps questions on the issue of welfare should be posed to someone interested in that debate. Maybe then you would get some responses to those welfare related questions.

 

Perhaps someone on the Anti-Choice side could think things through.....(no, don't think so)

 

Oooooooh...

 

Generally, an action is right or wrong depending on how it impacts other people. Having an abortion impacts no one else. Criminalizing abortion reduces women to second class citizens, and that is wrong.

Yes, preventing abortion forces her to stay pregnant. There is no third option.

A person who thinks abortion is wrong should not have one, but forcing that belief on others is WRONG. Whatever value you place on the goo sack, forcing a woman to use her body against her will, to endure significant pain and damage to her body, risking her health/life and inflicting your values on her body and the course of her life is WRONG.

 

Anyone who would want to kill a goo sack is lower than a second class citizen. But, as I have said, we all make mistakes, and have all acted like crappy citizens at one time or another.

Once again, if we accept this logic, then we must also define consensual sex as a decision to get pregnant. I do not agree with this logic and am surprised to see that so many pro choicers do, while lacking the capacity to apply such logic anywhere other then as it suits them on this singular issue.

In fact, all laws are examples of one forcing his opinion of morality on others. This logic supports anarchy, which you may very well support. Many pro choicers, however, are not anarchists, just misguided by liberal fallacies. You could lose them from the bandwagon. I hope you do.

 

"""""In fact, all laws are examples of one forcing his opinion of morality on others"""""


No, it isn't. It is not a fact. Laws are based on protecting society from disruption and chaos ....and NO "disruption" and "chaos" are NOT "morals".

 

You're arguing that more people are identifying as pro-life, right? So why did you include a linked quote stating that the percentage of Americans who consider themselves pro-choice has surpassed those who consider themselves pro-life for the first time since 2008?

 

You're forgetting about right and wrong. Remember, an action is wrong if it impacts another person negatively, and abortion doesn't. But, forcing a woman to use her body against her will, to endure significant pain and damage to her body, to risk her health/life and inflict your values on her body and the course of her life does hurt women and is without question, WRONG.

I have no idea what you are going on about, but preventing pregnant women from aborting does force them to stay pregnant. You look silly and dishonest trying to deny that.

Wrong, the purpose of laws is to maintain order. Why would pro-choicers support anarchy? The law is on our side.

 

I'd suggest actually researching your own laws .. but it would be pointless to do so as you are already buried in your own bias.

 

There is no difference. One person's idea of disruption and chaos is different from another's. It all boils down to morality. Free wheelingly killing goo sacks for no good reason is chaos.