Proselytizing

It is your definition of sorcery that comes from TV .. "evil spirits" and so forth.

Sorry .. that was a typo. God created the world by the word.

God used words to focus his will .. Sorcery.

Demonizing those who disagree with you is of no value.

I am not spiritually blind, and I am a follower of Christ .. aka Christian.

Obviously a better follower than you because I have taken the time to study the Bible, the history of the Bible, and sought for the truth as Jesus teaches.

Why would God need to have faith in himself. You are confused.

Faith, as discussed in the Bible, is belief of people who are not God in God.

The Bible does not ever say that God needs to have faith, has faith, uses faith to create things, and so on.

 

Just like you are doing now. Using words to focus your will. So you are also guilty now of sorcery.

 

In a way I suppose that is true. Nothing wrong with that kind of Sorcery.

 

If there is nothing wrong with that 'kind of sorcery' when you are using it, then why do you attempt to accuse God of doing some wrong. The Bible speaks against using 'sorcery'. Are you saying that God violated His own word? But yet it is OK for you to violate that word? What type of Christian are you?

 

Does the Bible say that God/Jesus use sorcery to create or heal? Yes or no.

 

The word used by the Hebrews was not likely "Sorcery"

Sorcery was the best word a translator could come up with and this person likely had a limited understanding of what Sorcery was/is.

When the Bible is referring to "Sorcery" - or whatever word was used it is referring to a specific act.

 

REally??? YOu mean that the ancient Hebrews did not speak modern English? How on earth did you ever figure that out? That is a strawman argument. The point is (regardless of what word the Hebrews used), the claim was made on this modern day forum that Jesus practiced 'sorcery' [however that word relates back to the original language]; my requirement is to PROVE that Jesus used 'sorcery'. So far, no proof has been brought forward; by you or by anyone else. Remember,, by the standards used by the Atheists and other non-theists when attacking theists is that "the onus is on the one making the extraordinary claim."

 

The Bible does not have to.

Any use of the will to effect a change in others is Sorcery.

Lose the TV definition of Sorcery and study what it actually means.

Sorcery is not only Merlin and Wizards shooting lightning bolts out of their palms .. although this is akin to what Jesus was doing was it not .. controlling energy to effect a change.

Willing a transformation to occur is part of the process of Sorcery. Certainly Jesus did this.

Planning to alter events in the future is also Sorcery. One way to do this is by generating an alternate reality for yourself. This reality should be free from constraints, beliefs, and certain preconceived ideas sometimes referred to as barriers.

Then you predict the future.

Imagine a situation where a husband comes home late to his wife. Imagine that he has done this often and knows his wife will be upset.

He can predict what she will say when he walks in the door. He knows how he will respond .. and can likely predict what she will say back.

This senario has happened many times in the past so he can likely predict 5 or 6 chess moves into the future .. she will say this .. he will say that.

It often easy to predict the events because it is the same game that has been played out before .. over and over and always results in harsh words and hurt feelings.

In such situations .. the Sorcerer knows how to change the future.

He tells the man how: He tells the man that when the wife confronts him when he comes home she is predicting/expects a certain response.

Of course the wife too can predict the events 5 or 6 moves into the future.

The answer to this puzzle ?

On move 1 the man should do or say something the wife does not expect.
This will throw the wife into a state of confusion and she will then be open to listening.

Do not underestimate the power of disorientation when one confronts the unexpected.

The man must be as completely free as possible from past association to the situation in order to be able to handle what will come from his wife.

He must have a direction in mind of what he would like the future look like and have thought of various senarios that might play out but at the same time not be attached to these senarios.

If done properly (sometimes with practice and time) he will be able to alter the nature of the interaction to change the future into something else than what would have occurred.

Once the man becomes starts to have "faith" in his ability to change the future he can advance to do bigger things.

 

How is pointing out to you that the definition of Sorcery used by a translater is not the only definion, a straw man ?

I said earlier that Sorcery was dependent on ones definition.

I have given many definitions .. all which are correct.

If you think that Sorcery means consulting demons .. then I do not think Jesus did that.

Consulting demons is not all inclusive of what Sorcery is and not all Sorcerers consult demons.

 

Because it is an irrelevant argument used to offset the requirement on you to provide proof of claim, regardless of the definition source or the various transmutations the word has undergone in reaching it's current translation and definition. Prove your claim.

And I am saying that the definition is irrelevant. I am not looking for a right or wrong definition, I am looking for you to prove your claim ... PROOF... OBJECTIVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.... not opinion in any form.

Redundancy is not helping your situation.

PROOF. What do you not understand about that word "proof"?

 

The claim is that the word has definitions other than that used in the Bible.

The word Sorcery encompases many definitions.

The intelligent thing to say in such cases is to agree on what definition is being used.

Your rambling on about proof is irrelevent to a definition.

A definition needs no proof .. it is what something is defined to be.

Prove that Jesus was a God and not just a fellow who practiced magic and tricks that he learned while in Egypt .. training ground for Sorcerers.

Yes indeed .. what proof do you have " Objective Emperical Evidence" that Jesus was God and rose from the Dead.

After that please explain how it is possible for an immortal God to die.

 

Once again and for a final time: I don't care about what definition you use. I want proof that Jesus practiced or used 'sorcery'. That was the original claim. I could care less about any of the contrived definitions that you NOW attempt to use as your RATIONALIZATION (excuse). Do you or do you not have proof that Jesus was a practitioner of sorcery? Not opinions... PROOF.

 

Sorcery includes the act of raising people from the dead. Jesus is claimed to have done this

I have no proof that Jesus actually raised Lazarus from the dead. Some claim that the Lazarus story is related to the resurrection of Osirus from which the name lazarus can be derived.

 

Repeating the 'claim' that was made by someone else is not a PROOF.

No PROOF... then no verifiability of the actuality of the 'claim'.

 

I agree there verifiable proof that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.

 

You used 'raising people from the dead' as a certain definition of the word 'sorcery', now it is shown that there is no verifiable proof of such a clam as pertaining to that definition. Now shall we try one of the other definitions of your choosing? Show such proof for any of those definitions as they would apply to Jesus.

 

I agree with your point that there is no verifiable proof for any of the things that Jesus was claimed to have done.

 

Then for someone to claim affirmatively that Jesus practiced 'sorcery' without such verifiable PROOF, would be a false claim.... and one that can only be considered in the light of other claims from the past, but not PROVEN. Therefore, the subject would remain a point of subjectivity.

 

I did not even bother to read beyond the part highlighted….because you did not answer my question you just side step it(just like the Pharisees that refused to answer Jesus' question)…..you have a double standard. You claim that what I said is not in the Bible, even though I provided several scriptures that it is by faith God/Jesus did what He did. But when you make claims that is not in the Bible you don't need scripture……you just make it up. I am not going to waste anyone more time with you because I know what you are about, and you are not one that is guided by scripture but by your own opinion influence by Satan.

 

Because Im of God and believe when He speaks.

Quantrill

 

Good point. He must then believe it by faith.

Quantrill

 

I prefer the use of the synonymous terms "confidence" and "trust" as opposed to 'faith".

 

sorcery
n pl -ceries
the art, practices, or spells of magic, esp black magic, by which it is sought to harness occult forces or evil spirits in order to produce preternatural effects in the world

Scripture which refutes that in the works of Jesus when He was accused as such is:

Luke 11:15-20:
15 But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.” 16 Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven. 17 But He knew their thoughts and said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. 18 If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19 And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges. 20 But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

So He was accused of such 'black arts' back then by some (usually the religious Jewish hierarchy) and responded with the above wisdom that His accusers could not refute..

 

Excellent post OD.. I like that. So, as it stands, Jesus denied the accusation, and those of today still have not been able to PROVE that Jesus used any form of 'sorcery'.

 

What is this question that is so pressing that I have not answered.

It is not there .. you are putting your own meaning in.


"Jesus" does not say this in the scriptures that you quoted that God heals people by "Faith" or that God created the world by Faith.

All that Jesus says is that because people had faith, they were healed.

Jesus chose not to heal those that had faith. Faith is not the method that Jesus used to heal.

I back up what I say with Scripture. It is not my fault that the scripture you presented does not support what you say.

God says to seek the Truth. That you refuse to see the truth is a function of something that is blinding you, that you are being influenced by. Denial and repression is common among religious cults.

It is not God who blinds people to the Truth IMO ... but that other fellow.