Here's a challenge for people who claim that logic must be used in everysingle way to justify every single thing imaginable. So, how would you use logic to justofy the existence of God? It's easy to use logic to deny the existence of God, and I'm sure some logical people will try to do that, but that's not what the challenge is. Try using logic to justify God.
Actually as of yet nobody can either prove or disprove the existence of God by mere logic (or any other means). If one had found any compelling logic behind either proposal most posts in this subforum would be obsolete, because the question would have been conclusively solved by now. What one can do is to make one’s own assumptions about God’s existence/non-existence inherently logical. It’s what those old scholastics, thanks to whom we still know about guys like Aristotle, have been quite eager to do. The Church’s tradition of valuing reason is maintained to this day by theologians such as Keith Ward, who haven’t got the slightest problem to believe in the existence of God and to give lectures on logic in the philosophical faculty.
interesting. how does he go with the overtly illogical stuff? like, god sacrificed himself to himself, but not really, and talking snakes, and why plant a naughty tree directly in the path of perfect beings (and no, it ain't free will when it comes with an 'or else'), unless it was to test them, and why would an all powerful creator being need to test widgets? I could be here all afternoon, but you get the drift.
You know....I have come to look at it this way. Would I really want to pray to some GOD as existing and behaving as such a GOD did in the Bible? HELL NO!!! Not a GOD I would want any part of. So....those who believe in such things....that is their right and I would and have FOUGHT to preserve that right. All I ask is the RIGHT to believe as I wish and at the very least....have those who are Religious RESPECT my rights the way I respect their rights. When some idiot at 2 or 3 comes to my house and rings my doorbell at 9 am on a Saturday Morning....and I stumble out of bed trying not to wake up SKY....my girlfriend as we just went to bed perhaps 20 minutes ago....and I throw on a pair of shorts and a tank top and open my door to see a few IMPECCABLY DRESSED like they were going to CHURCH....men and women holding BRIEFCASES AND LEAFLETS....and I hear something like...."HAVE YOU ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR?.....coming out of one of their mouths as...... ...........as I am still trying to adjust my eyes to the sunlight and am still tasting TEQUILA in my mouth and then I say......NO! HAVE A NICE DAY! And in my attempt to CLOSE my front door....A FOOT IS STUCK IN BETWEEN THE DOOR AND THE DOOR JAM....effectively not allowing me to close the door and this persons foot represents a HUMAN BODY PART IN MY HOME....UNINVITED!!!!......well...let's say for everyone's sake I have to COUNT TO 10....as it is never a good start to any day having BLOODY BODY PARTS strewn across one's front yard lawn!!! All I ask for is RESPECT!!! The same respect I give Highly Religious People. People who's home's I would NEVER force myself into. AboveAlpha
rip-snorting. you're one scary dude, AA. anyway, check out Safran's doorknocking for atheism. in salt lake city they respect us like we respect those who deal in kiddie porn.
Logically I would first ask myself.....is there any PURPOSE OR BENEFIT....for me to spend time attempting to LOGICALLY JUSTIFY something that cannot be proven to exist? Logical Answer......NONE WHATSOEVER. AboveAlpha
You know....in case you didn't know....I just spent close to a MONTH in Israel and the Palestinian Territories. Home to two of the most diametrically apposed groups of Violent Highly Religious People on Planet Earth!!! This was the 3rd and LAST time I have been there...and the ONLY reason I was there is I owed a close friend BIG TIME!! But all debts have now been paid. Now...as YOU know I am an AGNOSTIC and I do NOT believe in a GOD existing as advertised in the Bible, Koran or Torah. YET....in this far away land Muslim's and Jew's......Palestinian's and Israeli's....and even Lebanese Christian's....GO WAY OUT OF THEIR WAY....to RESPECT my beliefs.....as this being the 3rd time I have been there and I and my Team am KNOWN for doing some pretty crazy and unconventional S#!% to force the Negotiators on all sides to come to agreements such as when.... I had members of my Team shoot out...more like COMPLETELY EXPLODE AND OBLITERATE....the tires on two Limo's of two Negotiators from opposing sides.....with Barrett .50 Caliber M82 Sniper Rifles. I disarmed two Personal Guards of Negotiators who broke my rule of NO WEAPONS....and told them their weapons were forfeit and were now mine because they broke my rule. Locked all Negotiators in the Conference Room of the Bunker I chose to run talks and told them they would NOT be allowed out until they agreed upon whether it would be BOTTLED WATER OR PITCHERS OF WATER WITH GLASSES USED DURING HIGHER LEVEL TALKS. And there is one thing I did I am just DYING to tell you about but I think I should keep my mouth shut about this last one as I should wait a while before discussing it but it is FUNNY AS HELL!! LOL!! Thing is....I have to fly half way around the world to get the respect I want in my own damn country!!! AboveAlpha
You cannot use logic to justify something illogical. In fact this is one of best arguments against the existence of God I have ever heard. However unfortunately we do see theists try all the time. In fact it is in many ways in there mind they best argument for his existence which is to say how could this world exist, this universe being as complex as it is without a designer behind it? This of course is not actually logical but it certainly appears to be for a lot of people.
Your argument which led me to the conclusion found at http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=358539&p=1063933152#post1063933152 indicates that logic is no more a part of nature than what God is or vice versa. In your argument there, you have arbitrarily placed God and logic in the same boat, or on the same pedestal, equating them both to not be a part of nature or was it that they are both a part of nature. (chuckle). It would be nice if you were to go back to that posting and provide some input as opposed to an act of avoidance.
Logic is used to come to a conclusion, not to justify a pre existing belief. By definition to attempt to do so is not logical...
Logical Syllogism: According to the Copenhagen Interpretation, the first Elemental Wave Functions of the Big Bang required some observer to collapse them into a universe. The Universe is here. The observer must be the creator god.
Even if the CI were borne out to be absolutely correct, why MUST the observer be 'the creator god'? please demonstrate how that would be even remotely a logical conclusion - that the creator of universes was in fact, that very creature dreamed up by some bronze age goat herders in a desert on a small speck of continent on a small speck of a planet in a tiny system in a huge galaxy in an unknown sized universe. Demonstrate how it's not equally 'logical' to imagine (or hope) that this observer or observers were an army of sentient lampshades, or giant cucumbers, or a huge, semi-organic amorphous blob of jelly.
The universe could not have formed unless the Elemental Wave Functions were observed. Hence, the observer "created" the universe by collapsing the wave functions.
? ..."why MUST the observer be 'the creator god'? " Only by observing could the waves collapse into Universe.
try again. in case you missed it, the question was "how is it logical that a creator god is the observer, and not a herd of sentient lampshades"?
Because the "creator god" had not yet caused the manifestation of the sentient lampshades... to my knowledge, He still has not caused such manifestation of sentient lampshades. Are you fantasizing again?
Your just playing your silly games. Go back through and see what I replied to. Be intellectually honest.
I am not obligated to do your footwork. You said I made a claim, and I am asking you what claim you are referring to. Be intellectually honest.
You aren't doing my homework. You know exactly the claim, you made it. Mod Edit ~ Unnecessary comment
