Stephen Fry calls God an ‘evil, capricious, monstrous maniac’

You are splitting hairs:

You do have free will, all of your actions are known, and there is no decision you can make that will veer off that path.
You do not have free will, all of your actions are known, and there is no decision you can make that will veer off that path.

Tell me what the practical difference is.

 

Clearly the problem comes in when you try to claim nothing
can make you veer off a path once something is known.
The thing is known because of the choice you've made...not visa versa. If you choose to veer off any chosen path then that is known too. I don't know how people get so twisted around.

 

If you veer off the path, that was known before you were even aware of the choice. Free will does not play with Omnipotence.

You are splitting hairs, I look at the ends results, which are indistinguishable from each other.

 

I think you are the one splitting hairs and if I stand on the roof of a tall house and watch someone walk past down the street then I can see several blocks ahead and see that intersection where police are redirecting foot traffic and I know the turn you will have to make. However the pedestrian will not know what I already see.

But at any intervening point you can choose to turn around, or veer off in another direction or simply stop and not walk at all. And I will see that all too. But I can only see it once you've made a decision.
You've failed to demonstrate that knowledge of a choice is negation of that choice.

 

lol

Problem which your argument and mine is that you are allowing for choices to be made that will surprise you. That is not a trait of Omnipotence. That means that what you describe are not god like abilities. You are confused because you do not consider that simple fact.

You do have free will, all of your actions are known, and there is no decision you can make that will veer off that path.
You do not have free will, all of your actions are known, and there is no decision you can make that will veer off that path.

Tell me what the practical difference is.

 

Omnipotence is not deterministic. That your ultimate choice you might make in any circumstance may be known is not an indication that your free will is negated.
God knows what your final choice will be. And if you change your mind, he knows of that too (if omnipotence is part of his bag).

 

Then free will is an illusion on our end and non-existent on the deities end.

Apologetics are not really that impressive.

 

OOOPS.. you goofed... no dodge... you failed in your prophetic certainty... OR .. did you do as God commanded in your life for you to perform as I also perform according to His will and His plan?
http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/god/god_change_mind.htm

 

1. You are not an omniscient god
2. You can never know with 100% certainty any choice anyone will make. God knows, not only with 100% certainty, but according to his will/plan.
3. No one, ever, can change any decision god already knows, planned.

See the difference?

I knew you before you were born.
Ever hear of that?

 

For believers of the omni everything God, YES, all do according to his will and his plan.

What were you trying to point out with your link?

 

I'm familiar with the claim but not the rationale behind it.

I quite agree.

 

The rational is simple:
Omnipotence > All knowing > All responsible

All knowing does not allow for John Doe's trek to be expectantly stopped because he was hit be a bus. The moment was known and predetermined before John was born, before the stars exists, before energy condensed in quarks. There is nothing John can do that is unexpected because he cannot deviate from what is already known/predetermination. His free will, if it exists on a biological level (which I doubt very seriously) is an illusion.

 

No. Difference in what?

Yes, I have heard of it and to "know" someone is really not the same thing as
directing and laying out, far in advance, every move made by human beings so that we are really nothing more than pointless automatons living pointless lives. And where is the point in that?

I understand attacking omnipotence by claiming it robs man of free will is a way of attacking God but no one has demonstrated how God's foreknowledge of my actions is robbing me of my ability to direct those actions.

 

Wow.
You are human, god is not.
You are not omni all things. God is omni everything.

God doesn't just know, it is all planned.
Many christians believe if you believe just right they will be in this eternal paradise. Eternally doing pointless automatons existing pointless existence. And where is the point in that?

I don't intend on attacking anything, merely pointing out how I see 'free will' as an illusion if an omni all entity controls everything.
Even if there is no omni all entity, free will may just as well be an illusion. We are all conditioned internally and externally to do certain things and make certain choices.

 

No, it is due to the fact that you write at all.

 

But where is there any option for John Doe to express his free will when an outside force (like a bus) impacts his life? John Doe operates along a time line whereas God is outside of any such considerations.

Therefore, like a man sitting on a house looking down on a panorama, God can see what is ahead but a pedestrian will have no idea what is going on three blocks away as he walks along. If was ordained that John Doe be hit by a bus it will be so but that really says nothing about John Doe's free will per se (assuming no one wishes to be hit by a bus).

 

There is nothing John Doe can do to prevent the eventuality of being hit by the bus.

His free will is non-existent, yet an illusion to him.

 

Perhaps you can learn to express your original thought more clearly.

Yes. Where is the point in an eternal struggle between good and evil? Isn't free will at the root of that conflict?

Here we have the collision of two views of God (one view being God is an omnipotent being that has predestined everything therefore robbing man of free will, and the other view being that man is capable of seeing the wrong way of living and chooses it anyway thereby opposing God...and why would God ordain that?).
Again, it's pointless and your view of God's omnipotence must be the root of the problem.

Yes...IF.

Is Bruce Jenner "conditioned" to want to chop his Johnson off and become female?

 

There is nothing the planet earth can do to prevent a rain of deadly asteroids from crashing into it. Yet we all have the ability to choose how we will react to such an event. You are confusing an unavoidable external force (bus) with an internally controlled multitude of choices and options that can be summoned and acted upon, if needed and wanted.

 

Did you read the article? Maybe? Only you (among the humans on this forum) know for sure. IMHO, I don't believe that you did. There are many questions in that article that the non-theists like to play with, and IMHO, the answers are reasonable answers ("For believers of the omni everything God,,,,,"). For those others (the ones who are not believers) ... OH well, you are just doing as God instructed you to do.

 

I am looking at things on the macroscopic level, fate. A deterministic universe.

 

Perhaps but I can't control a bus running me over (assuming I never say it coming).
I can control, however, how I react to that external force. To people who would suggest I can't I would ask for evidence of that claim.

 

Such are the opinions of people... they all have one.

 

Your reaction is already known and pre-determined. That is the macroscopic issue.

The microscopic is that the chemical process of a thought occurs before we are aware of the thought/choice/actions. Free will is an illusion either way you cut it.
[video=youtube_share;pCofmZlC72g]http://youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g[/video]

 

Oh really? Who then is the internal or external conditioner that causes you to make "certain choices" and causes you to do "certain things"? What are those 'certain things' and 'certain choices'?