Christians, did Yahweh create evil?

Is sexual promiscuity good if bastards multiply in numbers, Welfare becomes necessary, violent crime increases, child abuse by single mothers become gigantic in the absence of live in fathers, education begins to fail in the cities, and No Fault Divorce has women using marriage as a weapon for demanding more and more, etc?
Does society threaten itself with the EVIL of self destruction, or is everything "good?"

 

1) I've been to churches and seen emotionally labile people carry on like pork chops. I've also seen emotionally labile people do the same trance sh#t in Buddhist temples, Hindu temples, and dance parties. I have no idea why you think this VERY human behaviour is unique to Christianity. some Christians would even say it's demonic, for the record. Further, just because someone can also get their trance jollies out of a jesus session, doesn't mean they don't fear death.

2) So holiness is nothing but fancy words explaining ... nothing. Feels good to think it about yourself or your pet deity, though, I imagine.

3) Anyone with a positive spirit has hope for the future. I cannot guess at how tiny your world is if you think that your particular desert sky god is essential to same. And once again, a nation is made up of individuals.

4) Oy vay .... looks like another customer for my time masheen. Would you like a week in a Victorian London slum, as the eldest son of a very poor widow with 11 children, sharing a basement flat with three other families and 37 rats? Or would prefer the black woman living in the deep south of America in 1952, with too many kids, an absent husband, and no money?

5) on free will, don't know why you're talking about the garden of eden. we ain't there, we're here. and unless you can confirm that it's possible to surprise your god, then you must acknowledge there is no free will, only the appearance of free will. you might want to consider that some Christians actually claim we can do things god doesn't expect us to do ('upsetting his plans', it's been called), so this tells us he ain't anything like omniscient and omnipresent. damn those omnis ... they've ruined everything. the church fathers probably should have thought that through before they started claiming it on behalf of Yahweh.

 

While it is true that hypocrisy runs deep in the church, it would not be fair to the rest of us to assume we are all like that.

Believe me, there are plenty of us who have no desire to judge others and are content with our personal relationship with God. We do not go out and save souls on Friday night while preaching fire and brimstone, we prefer to simply live our lives the best we can and if God is able to use us as an example we are happy to oblige.

There are plenty of non-Christians who have led far more moral lives than I have and even though I am a Christian now, that does not give me the right to walk around pointing fingers at others and tell them they are doing wrong.

 

Creating evil doesn't mean you're responsible for it.

 

Perfect Knowledge of Good and Evil may be useful in any given alternative.

 

The 7-deadly-sins are wrong, and as such that Catholic doctrine has put you in the wrong too.

As to just "pride" then there are different kinds of pride and of being proud, as there is nothing wrong with being proud of doing right and of rightful accomplishments.

The hurtful and wrong kind of pride is different.

"Yahweh ... rewards the proud doer." See Psalms 31:23

All those "7-deadly-sins" have a positive (not sin) side to each one, and the law was done away because they are inadequate.

 

It does if you're omnipotent etc and planned everything that would ever happen. That much 'creation' allows no independence.

 

I say if you are content to just argue against the stupidity of mainstream Christianity then you can win every time, and you are just picking the easy fights and easy targets.

What I find is that the Bible does NOT say that God is omnipotent, as that is just a Christian concept based on their own ideas.

And the Bible never says that God planned everything, and if one actually reads the Bible then it repeatedly tells how the plans keep going wrong.

Just FYI.

 

Exactly so - they are easy targets! And I am indeed, picking fights. There is a reason for doing so, however, which is no doubt obvious to the thinking Christian (I count you among such). Exposure is overdue by about 1700 years. Since the church and its adherents have only recently begun to tolerate criticism, there is much work to be done. There are going to be people out there who've never stopped to think about what they've been forced to believe, so it behoves us to keep discussing the often ugly truth. Once this stuff is as well publicised as the sanitised version, then effectively our work will be done. If some people continue on regardless, then we know and accept that there were always going to put subservience to tradition (no matter how bad that tradition is) ahead of ethics.

As regards the origins of these aspects of god under discussion, what matters is that many Christians believe that god is Omni-everything, and that he planned everything that would ever happen, even before he began creating. I'm entirely in agreement with you that this a blight on your faith, and I'm pretty sure more like yourself regret that it was ever claimed. I think the difficulty for Christianity is that so much has now been built upon this idea, that the whole edifice collapses without it.

Consider: if Yahweh didn't plan everything that would ever happen, then he can be surprised and outwitted. This renders him far less powerful than the foundations of Christianity need him to be. It also suggests very strongly that he's merely one of many gods, since he can't cover everything. This latter is extremely toxic to Christians, as it undermines their premise of uniqueness and exclusivity. Many Christians utterly depend upon this very fragile idea. They're able to pretend to themselves that no other religions exist (and intellectual knowledge of their existence is not the same thing as accepting that those religions are as real as their own), and that no one but jesus did jesus-like things (a patent nonsense ... since he merely reiterated what's been said by wise men and gurus around the world since year dot), but they can't abide the suggestion that their own god has limitations. Hence my repeating it loudly and often.

 

No, humans are responsible for their actions. God created all the possible paths a person can take in his life, and humans are ultimately responsible for the path they take.

No evil can come from God, as He is the very source of Good.

 

Christians would say that God planned which path you'd take, so you might need to address that spanner in the works.

Of course evil must come from god, if you believe in a god who created everything, and planned everything that would ever happen. Remember that the adam/eve myth gives us two adults with no knowledge of evil until god introduced them to the concept. He also knew, when he did so, that they would choose evil, because that's what he'd planned they'd do. Tricky!

 

Yes, God created evil. But

1. He gave us free will, so we are ultimately responsible for our actions. If God is all-good, then only in good actions can one find His divine presence. It is thus illogical to say that God is responsible for evil actions.

There is a significant difference between creating evil and engaging in it. Secondly,

2. God is omnipotent, but He is also all-wise. So what you may regard as evil circumstances may actually be good for you in the long term.

 

IF god is all good, and IF god exists, and IF god actually created the universe, and IF your god is the only god. that's a hell of a lot of IF's to be so complacent about 'good'. It's only illogical to presuppose any of the above ifs.

Once again, the assertion is that Yahweh (Allah) PLANNED everything that would ever happen. Including evil. He made evil people and he made these people do the evil things they do.

If Yahweh is all wise, how is it that he indulges anger and jealousy?

 

I am impressed by your honesty, and also by your candor, and I am stomped by it too and that never happens to me.

As such then I give you my approval and my blessing for you to carry onward in your own way.

And this also means that I must back out and leave this thread to your domain while I exit.

 

cheers, good sir. it's been a pleasure

 

I am of the belief that the G-d of Abraham/ YHWH/ The Word/ Logos is a rabid universalist and knows that He knows that He knows...… that eventually He will even be able to restore the fallen angels to a heavenly state of mind/ paradise/ love/ light/ truth........... but.......... this absolute belief in universal salvation that the Creator has gives Him/Her a tendency to have a much greater belief in freedom of choice and freedom of religion than we religious people tend to believe in.

G-d created freedom of choice...… the freedom of choice led to evil....... that also could be termed disharmony?!

The final Elijah may be involved in the restoration of the fallen angels because Messiah Yeshua - Jesus stated that the last Elijah would "restore all things" and even "appease the wrath of the LORD!"

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/26048.htm

 

Well, I can see where you came to your conclusions, and I hope you can see where I came to mine. You seem like a smart person who knows what they're talking about, so I would rather cut this argument short now and not risk causing bitterness. Agree to disagree?

 

It's clear nothing will be gained from either of us continuing this discussion. You will not be swayed, nor will I. I can assure you that this is not a surrender. I end it now for your sake and for mine. Arguments should always be stopped before bitterness sets in, because once it does, there's no going back. I don't want to feel bitter toward you.

 

Alrighty

Agree to disagree.
I mean, essentially, you and I agree on everything else.

 

1. God didn't create evil. Those whom he gave the ability to think for themselves
created evil.

2. Jesus could have stopped the crucifixion at any time but chose to die for our sin.

3. God didn't want mindless robots. He wanted a voluntary relationship with
mankind.

 

1) did god create everything in the universe, or did he not? are we able to create things (evil) in the same way god did?

2) jesus did not die, he was in a coma for 3 days. I have friends who 'died' for longer.

3) voluntary like the rape victim surrendering at gunpoint.

 

Yes.

God didn't create evil. I answered that very clearly.

No, he was dead. When the spear went into his side he bled water and blood.
One must be dead several hours before water and blood collect enough to
pour from a wound.

No comparison whatsoever, but you know that.

 

1) either god created everything (necessarily therefore including evil), or he didn't. you say he did, ergo he created evil. evil is a thing in EVERTYthing.

2) so a body leak is what your entire premise hinges upon? worse, a temporary leaky death?

3) it is EXACTLY the same thing. actually, much worse. a gunshot to the head is quick and final. threatening to burn people 'alive' for eternity for non-compliance? you call that voluntary?

 

Oh, I see your problem. Evil isn't a thing. Evil is a decision. I hope this clear it up
for you.

I see you ignore medical evidence. You need to do some homework and then
come back and try to discuss this intelligently. Unless, of course, you have no
intentions of learning the truth and are bent on wrangling with no real purpose in
mind.

No it isn't. You want it to be the same. Jesus' death was voluntary.

Seriously, you need to do some homework. Maybe stay away from sites that
deal only with hatred.

 

1) did Yahweh plan everything and create everything? Once again, you're falling over those damned shoelaces. A dogma which asserts "god planned and created every thing that would ever happen, including DECISIONS" leaves no room to move. If you don't agree with the dogma, just say "god did NOT plan everything, and did NOT create everything". While this will cut your god down to fallible size, you'll at least be freed from those shoelaces.

2) What the heck does 'medical evidence' have to do with claims of the supernatural, please? Even if magic were true, this guy only died for 3 days. That's embarrassingly puny, as sacrifices go.

3) Yeah, because he knew it was a token gesture 'death', and that he'd be up and about again in a few days. And how did we move from voluntary belief to the volunteer 'death' of jesus? We were talking about Christians and their 'volunteering', but I guess that was uncomfortable.

What homework will make magic real?

Hate sites? Well you've lost me there.