Present arguments for your faith, without using your holy texts...

One thing that frustrates the heck out of me, (and many others no doubt) is the circular nature of arguments put forward for religions based on their holy texts.

If you can come up with a decent argument as to why anyone should follow your particular god/religion without reference to that particular gods/religions holy text, I'd like to hear it.

I think it will be interesting to see who can do so, and who can't.

 

I'll save you time.

Argument from personal incredulity will show up a number of times, followed by the argument from design, followed by out right lies about science.

 

Why should any of us present an argument regarding our faith or our God, when that is a personal relationship? Whether you follow after the God I believe in or whether you follow in the Faith that I trust, makes no difference to me, PERSONALLY. If you do, Great! If you don't, so what?

 

Let me express mine with photos. It won't be hard to guess where I stand
http://www.nucleardarkness.org/hiroshima/hiroshimapicture/#

 

So that's a "No, I can't."

 

I suppose the most logical position that I can favor is pantheism. The sum total of all the physical laws in the universe can be referred to as "god", however these laws are not personal as a theistic being and not a conscience force capable of making decisions.

 

..................................


I lose!!

(Anything else is just one's vain opinion or imagination)

 

Every single argument and proof of a god has come from man. No matter what god it is. It was written and told by man. I have yet to see any proof of an alien or other 'being' influencing our species.
What I believe? I can believe in one thing that I know for certain in life. I will eventually die and be no more.
So find your happy place and live the best you can while you can.

 

religion is a state of mind, a vision, a lifestyle.

it needs proof and comparison to be supported
when people are discussing. otherwise it's a never-ending loop.

it is so - no it isn't - it is so - no it isn't - it is so - no it isn't - ...

belief is at the heart,
brain solely provides logical proofs to back up.

you see, it's abstract and concrete merging.
abstract being the belief and inexplicable experience
and concrete being life, everyday living and actual facts.

since you can't show your heart to people,
and how that makes you feel.
you try to explain it with insufficient words.

but if you are a believer, of course all you have to say is:
"i do believe". no further explanation is necessary.

if you want to discuss though, and share the experience...
you must provide proof and consistency.

because most people don't see with their hearts,
they are often stuck with their ego and
their stubborn ignorant minds.

 

Faith isn't something that can be explained to anyone, as it was so well stated in mehmet post, it is a knowing felt in your heart, and your spirit. It requires no confirmation from humans, nor affirmations from religious organizations. It is a very personal walk with the Divine. Just as each child is different in their relationships with their parents, so is the relationship with our God. It doesn't have to be defended!

 

Cool response. I like it. You have become the first on this forum to recognize that one 'pragmatic absolute in life.... "we will all live, until we die" everything else is purely subjective '.

 

Now, I wonder,,,, does your closing statement above also include those within the category of 'atheist and other non-theists'?

 

in my opinion; a human is a human.
the material is the same. so it does include everyone, yes.

in fact, if you ask me, atheism is a religion too.
it contains a leap of faith and a mind set.

just like a religious person,
when an atheist runs out of answers in logical/scientific facts
he leaps towards a belief. "it must be like this..." he says.

then he sets his habits, his lifestyle, his friends, his relations
according to the disbelief and that decision he has made.
so how is this different?

in our religion, in islam,
the disbeliever is called "kafir" (the one who covers the truth).

it comes from the root "k-f-r".
which means "to conceal, to hide".

ok but "hide" what exactly?

hide the natural disposition of self, the tendency inside
towards believing and submitting to one God.

 

Excellent post; And I must admit that I agree with you wholeheartedly. My question that you have answered with exceptional prowess, was merely to determine whether you were pitting one against another or were setting one group aside as being above the other. I applaud your response.

Now one more question. Based on the teachings of Islam, is the word k-f-r (kafir) bear any relationship to the English term 'rationalize'. Based on the extended definition of 'rationalize', it would appear to fit squarely within your given definition of k-f-r (kafir).

"rationalize, rationalise [ˈræʃənəˌlaɪz]
vb
1. to justify (one's actions, esp discreditable actions, or beliefs) with plausible reasons, esp after the event
2. (Psychology) Psychol to indulge, often unchallenged, in excuses for or explanations of (behaviour about which one feels uncomfortable or guilty)
3. to apply logic or reason to (something)
4. (Business / Commerce) (tr) to eliminate unnecessary equipment, personnel, or processes from (a group of businesses, factory, etc.), in order to make it more efficient
5. (Mathematics) (tr) Maths to eliminate one or more radicals without changing the value of (an expression) or the roots of (an equation)"

 

that's an interesting point you have made.
i guess you may personally link "k-f-r" to "rationalize" if you elaborate on it.

when the faith is challenged, usually;

a) you don't change your stance no matter what and refute arrogantly
(that's nafs talking not you)

b) admit easily that you don't know. start researching and seek the truth
(that's sanity talking)

c) say only what you know, and invite the addressed person to the truth,
but do that by respecting him/her right to believe whatever he/she wants to...
for it's between him/her and Allah, and you are just carrying the message.
(again that's sanity talking)

the way Allah requires from all of us is to go after
a clear conscience and a clear mind set. (so its "b" and "c" for muslims)

in order to reveal what you hide from yourself and others (faith)
you must ponder a lot and, sincerely, ask for guidance.
you shouldn't insist on things for no reason, without proof.

the reflexion/thinking is encouraged multiple times in the qur'an.
you shouldn't believe in something just because you found your family
and your forefathers doing that, or because the society injects you a
way of thinking and you get along with it without questioning, or your
ego and desires or your interests orders you to do so...

these are discouraged, in fact shown as one of the main reasons
of deviation from the truth.

one of the qur'an's names is "al-furqan", the meaning of this word is to
distinguish between good and bad, truth and superstition; "the discernment".

but as a muslim you must keep in mind that
whoever Allah guides, there is none who can misguide him,
whoever Allah allows to be misguided cannot be guided.

thus our job in this specific matter,
is just to deliver the message patiently and not to cross the line:

went a bit off topic here, sorry.
but i wanted you to see different aspects.
i hope i could answer your question.

 

Response: Sure:

Proof that Allah exist- The human race is an intelligent species. Therefore, the origin of life must have originated from intelligent design. To say otherwise would mean that unintelligence created intelligence, which makes no sense because by definition...it's unintelligent.

Proof that Muhammad is the last and final prophet-

"It is humanly impossible to use speech/literature invented by a person/s that goes against the wants of a mass of people to inspire those same people to conquer a nation".

This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is impossible to use any speech or literature invented by a person/s that goes against the likes of the people, to inspire enough followers amongst them to conquer a nation. You disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. Go and get or create a speech or literature invented by any person/s that goes against the likes of people. After this, try using that same speech/literature to inspire enough followers amongst the people to conquer a nation and see what happens. I'll even simplify the challenge by asking you to just conquer the street you live on and see what happens. You will fail and fail miserably. You won't come close to achieving the challenge. You'll learn first hand that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when you'll learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? Because Muhammad used the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. So if it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature invented by a person/s, that goes against the likes of masses, to inspire enough followers amongst them to conquer a nation yet Muhammad used the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, then what does that mean? That means that the qur'an in which Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah (swt). You disagree? Take the challenge and prove differently.

Now if you disagree with the clear evidence, then you are obligated to follow your own standards and prove otherwise, without referring to non-religious texts.

 

Good read until people tried to explain and question others... I am Thiest-Agnostic.

I have no book and believe in science. I feel that there may be a God, I felt him once at Church (and posted about it), but haven't been back. I don't know if I'm scared or what, but the feeling was something unusual. My daughter felt it also and started to cry.

But, I have always known that there has to be something more than us - math just suggests it since there is an infinite amount of numbers. We can always get smaller, always get bigger and I find it arrogant of us to think otherwise.

So, there might be something out there - yes, but until something "outside" of man tells me otherwise... Meh... whatever... Live!!! Because we don't have long...

 

Somewhere in this world, a village is missing its idiot.

 

Arent YOU the one accusing everybody else of using "Ad Homs?!!"

Pot & Kettle, and Checkmate!!

 

The miraculous event at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 proves there is a God.

Look it up on Google.

I have mentioned this before and atheists have ignored it, or tried to explain it away with lame excuses.

Protestants aren't even on board because if Fatima is true, they really all need to convert to Catholicism. So they ignore Fatima just as much as atheists do.

An exasperating fact is that outside the Catholic world, most people pretend Fatima didn't happen.

But pretending is pretending.

 

Hitler. Hitler took the least antisemetic nation in Europe and had them slaughter 6 million Jews.

 

Hitler didn't come out of nowhere. The reason Germans were willing to follow him and commit all that evil is because they had long ago turned their backs on God. Even now, the Germans are very immoral. They have pornography everywhere and it isn't hidden from the children.

 

Blah blah blah blah.

Get back to me when you can use reason.

 

OK, answer me this. Do you think a guy like Hitler would have any chance of taking over England, France, or the United States and doing what he did?

 

You think that proves anything?