Present arguments for your faith, without using your holy texts...

What it proves is that the Germans were already inclined to commit evil. They had concentration camps during World War I. They invaded neutral countries in World War I. They committed atrocities to the Belgians during World War II.

The Germans didn't need Hitler. Any number of other guys could have stepped up and done the same thing.

And by the way, it's the Germans' fault that the Bolsheviks took over Russia. Look it up.

 

I don't need a history lesson from someone like you.

Plus it was the British who first used concentration camps during the Boer War.

 

Response: Yet Hitler did not use any speech/literature to inspire any followers to conquer a nation. Furthermore, the challenge itself provides a hands-on eyewitness account that such an act is humanly impossible, while your inability to attempt the challenge supports so. Thus the challenge still stands as proof that Muhammad is a true prophet.

 

They didn't conquer any nations?

You didn't take history in school, did you?

 

Response: In other words, you once again dodge the challenge to use speech/literature that goes against the likes of a mass of people to inspire followers among them to conquer a nation, for fear of being exposed of your absurd claims that such an act is humanly possible. Once again, your ducking and dodging of the challenge confirms your denial to the fact that Muhammad is a true prophet. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Go read a (*)(*)(*)(*)ing history book. The Nazis took over Germany and then took over half of Europe.

 

Response: Yet no Nazi ever conquered Germany by using speech/literature invented by a person/s that goes against the likes of a mass of people to inspire enough folowers among them to conquer Germany. Furthermore, the challenge itself provides a hands-on eyewitness account that such an act is humanly impossible. Thus your own denial of common sense and continuous ducking and dodging to do the challenege yourself confirms your denial to the fact that the challenge which proves that Muhammad is a true prophet still stands. Thanks for your assistance.

 

Hitler said the hard thing was convicing the German people to hate Jews. You're clueless.

 

Response" We still see you run in the corner and dodge the challenege to do it yourself yet again. You're denial is clueless, yet confirms the fact that the challenege which proves that Muhammad is a true prophet is still valid.

 

Proves nothing except that you don't know what the (*)(*)(*)(*) you're talking about.

 

Response: Only in the eyes of the delusional, while your consistent run to the corner instead of answering the challenge yourself supports the fact that the challenge which proves Muhammad is a true prophet is still valid. Thanks for the assistance.

 

Logical and rational thought are just vague concepts to you, aren't they?

 

no. It is more like: He and others are tired of casting pearls before swine. oh Oops. i used a quote from the bible.

 

Response: Your ducking and dodging of the challenge proves to the contrary. Your fear of being utterly exposed bothers you, doesn't it?

 

Your response did offer a possible solution to the direct question when you stated "i guess you may personally link "k-f-r" to "rationalize" if you elaborate on it. " That statement would show that you are uncertain and are forced to rely upon guesswork or potentially an evasive answer.

On the other side of the coin, your wandering 'off topic' from my question, did open my eyes to a few similarities between the teaching of the Quran and the Bible. See inserted comments below in red letter.

 

I'm just wondering, why would you expect different? To follow the religion, you must follow what is in the Holy Scriptures... So you should expect them to be brought up by religious people arguing for their religion.

For Islam, there is a couple pictures I need that should speak for itself:





These are Masjids in Indonesia, after the tsunami in 2004.

سلام

 

from my experience, all you have to do is to be sincere,
turn to Allah (God) and ask for "the" guidance.
in other words, ask for knowledge and truth from it's source.

but the thing about the truth...
from my experience, the truth is always simple.
never complex. does not include logical incosistencies.

truth is not embellished. it does not need to be explained
nor beautified with words, for it's beautiful already... it's the truth.

it eases your mind and your heart simultaniously.

truth is always one.
there can not be two truths at the same time.
just like doubt and certainty can not co-exist in the same mind.

truth, just like Allah (God) is one.
so his path is one too.

yet out of arrogance and self-persuasion,
everyone claims that their path is "the path",
even if they have so few knowledge about their own belief.
the very belief that they wrap their life around.

and you ask to those people:
are sure? really really sure, that what you are following is
the genuine way?

if the answer is yes, then my follow up question is:

do you wanna bet your eternity on it?

i have never seen anyone who dares to do an open heart surgery
without being a doctor; thus studying, practicing for years, then
actually doing the operation...

yet we see everyone talking about Allah (God), the reason of our
existence, eternity (after death), so on... without studying, reasearching
enough and being at peace with whatever they seem to think it's "right".

most people has something to say about these issues.
because it's a matter of free will, you are given the opportunity
to make your own mind.

and because people don't realize that what they see as a
"far away abstract idea", is actually more concrete than anything.
because it affects your life that you live now,
but it also affects your life after death.

(faith or a disbelief, as discussed on previous posts, is
a mind set, thus addressed here only as "belief" for the sake of
the argument, but it covers both of those states of mind/heart.)

how much more concrete can an abstract belief get?
a belief turning into reality and changing all aspects of your life,
taking charge, you letting it become your reality...

see, most people disbelieve because they are tired of being deceived.
and that the religion does not make sense to them.
that's understandabe, most of the religions don't make sense,
or it has some truth in it but blended with falsehood.
so you reject all at once, aka the easy way out.

my personal experience is;
qur'an sets you in a logical ground -you may believe it or not-
that you try to object but eventually you run out of ammo against it...

no incosistency.
and that, shines like nothing else in this world.
it makes you understand...

why there is suffering in this world, why death is set,
why people are so unjust and ignorant...
those are the questions right?

Allah grants us whatever we run after in this world.
and we will face them, when we move on to the next phase.

Allah is merciful and forgiving.

i know that the most frustrating thing for an agnostic or an atheist
is some random guy trying to "convince" him/her to believe in something.
in other words "sell" his religion to them... this is not my job, so i'm not
trying that at all.

but what i can say is:
spare time... be sincere...
and ask for guidance, ask for truth and read,
make an effort.

because if it's true, one should start questioning,
eternity is a long time, a loop that never ends.
what is it that my creator expects from me?
what is the meaning of life?
what is my mission?
is "being good" enough?
what is the source of good?

these are my humble opinions about the matter.
may Allah show the truth to you and to your families.

wow, can't write short posts these days...

regards.

 

I like thought experiments. I'm not personally a theist. However, I'd like to give this a shot, but it's more about attempting to prove a God exists rather than a specific religion. I'll use an argument set out by William Lane Craig, the most famous Christian apologist. I'll then slightly alter what he actually said to make it more clear.

1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

3. The universe exists.

4. Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence (from 1, 3).

5. Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God (from 2, 4).

No problem with the logic in this argument. However, I want to make premise 2 more understandable.

1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

2. The universe exists.

3. Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence either in the necessity of it's own nature or in an external cause. (1,2)

4. The universe cannot be explained by an appeal to it's own nature.

5. Therefore, the explanation of the universe is that it requires an external cause. (3,4)

6. If the universe requires an external cause to explain it's existence, then God exists.

7. Therefore, God exists. (5,6)

 

I don't understand the point of the OT. If we Christians believe biblical (etc) texts exist as per the actual will of God, what is the point of not using them? I have written many threads that demonstrate that a GID* is more rational and logical than the atheist belief or a belief that God does not exist. Most of my arguments etc use the KCA, or other cosmological/ontological arguments logical instruments to explain why the existence of God is more rational than atheist or scientific 'non deity' arguments that describe how the universe began. What more could you want? As for the arguments being circular I have found that is a claim made by the uneducated in both theology and philosophy, even if well educated in other subjects.

* My term & abbreviation GID= God the Intelligent Designer.

Rev A

 

I like your logic Sooner.

Rev A

 

God needs a creator, then. Then it's turtles all the way down.

 

ever heard of shooting theory?

say i want to shoot you, i pull out my gun and point at you.
but i need permission from mr. brown to shoot, so i ask him.
but mr. brown needs permission from mr. yellow, so he asks him.
but mr. yellow needs permission from mr. black, so he asks him.
but mr black needs permission from mr. white, so he asks him.
but mr white.....................................

this goes on forever, in cycle.
and as a result i'm still waiting with my gun pointed at you,
no action is taken.

so someone must pull the trigger without asking,
otherwise no big bang, no creation...

there must be a force majeure, for this order to happen.
just like a boat can not make himself...

the trees will not fall and cut themselves,
the wood will not be trimmed proportionally by chance,
around 100 nails won't come out of iron mines and shape themselves,
those nails won't just land to the appropriate spots with winds,
the curves of the wood won't happen by randomly bending itself.

that's a very simple mechanism.
and i haven't even stated all the work that has to be done for a small boat

now think...

"the universe".

 

If you accept premise 1, I can simply respond that God's own necessary nature explains his existence.

 

That's amazing!

 

Ok. But where did these laws come from? The answer would be the big bang. So, if you believe in the big bang, wouldn't that make you a monotheist?