10 Myths Many Religious People Hold About Atheists, Debunked

DISCLAIMER; Its been awhile so again I offer this disclaimer; Caps are a style of mine to demonstrate emphasis its not meant as shouting etc.

What do I mean by secular? Look it up! sec·u·lar

sec·u·lar [sékyələr]
adj
1. not concerned with religion: not controlled by a religious body or concerned with religious or spiritual matters
2. not religious: not religious or spiritual in nature

WW1 was not a religious war eh? It was fought for SECULAR reasons, having NOTHING to do with religion. The Civil war (USA) the Spanish American war, WW2 Nam, Korea, Iraq and the current ME wars, ALL SECULAR. All I hear from ignorant activist/radical atheists (the moderate atheists are usually better educated) is ; "Oooh how violent the religious are, they fight those awful wars!" In reality almost all religious wars of note could be said to really be fought for political gain, not purely religious reasons. Sorry if I sound irritated but the same old saw gets old and I have been hearing that same old ignorance for over ten years.

Rev A

 

Hmm, lets see, the Japanese were fighting a holy war for their god emperor and kingdom. Hitler was a bigoted and hateful christian who despised Jews and anyone not "German. Stalin was a georgian who was forced into a religious school and forced to speak Russian instead of his native language. Stalin wished to be a Priest but was removed from Seminary for inability to pay tuition! Hmm, then he got mad at all the religious nuts that wanted to force people to do things -hhhmmm, and then he went a bit nuts, because of religion, HMMMMM?

Oh, maybe you were not going to mention Hitler of Stalin. So, exactly what wars are you speaking of that are not about religion in one way or another?

 

Try

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer?pagename=scholarly_articles_existence_of_God

or a good popular (not scholarly) read, not simplistic but not calculus either;

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/read-prove-god-exists/

an article on the (above)

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent-evolution-quick-guide/

If you like biology read these (however if you read the pro and con you may have already have read the PhD Biologist Mr Behe) http://behe.uncommondescent.com/
From his web site you can access his many good to wonderful books challenging Darwinian biology, and finding parallels with non Darwinian evolution with traditional science. Biology arrrah' that and calculus, not my favorite subject, give me cosmology astronomy, classical physics, and theology any day!

Or if you can open your mind to just a little pseudo science and good science mixed read a bit of Gerald Schroeder The Science of God. He has been butchered by blue nosed atheist critics but still his stuff is good.

Dr.Gerald Schroeder B.Sc. Chemical engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) M.Sc. Earth and planetary sciences, M.I.T. PhD

www.geraldschroeder.com/ScienceGod.aspx

That is a very small sample of our peers and better, that is credentialed scientists, writers, philosophers, and others that make a case for God if you really want to find them.


Rev A

 

Ha ha come into my parlor said the spider~ Most of my avatars (that I render or create) have a sort of symbolism attached, and most are overly easy to decipher. As a believer in biblical prophesy and that wars rarely ‘end’*, the Crusades are still going on in spirit at least. Bush did not make a Freudian slip of the tongue when he mentioned Iraq and crusades in the same speech he was simply relaying the (spiritually influenced) facts of the day. It was a kind of leak of information from the atemporal to the temporal IMO. Anyway my avatar obvious eh? The west is old the old Christendom dressed in new garb, the east is old Islam. Is there hope for a thousand years of spiritual peace? Yes. Lasting peace? No.

However getting back on topic, classical war, differentiated from spiritual war) is the domain of man, and his greedy secular concerns.

Rev A

 

With all due respect; You should have read the entire post. If you would have read it you may have realized it made his case at the expense of invalidating yours.

Rev A

 

I attempt to avoid the Homosexuality issue (as a religious matter which is the my life) because I have no opinion at this time. The old testament condemns it while Jesus did not mention it in his ministry. The bible is actually quite liberal when it comes to sexual issues. Read the underwater down song of Solomon if you want proof! Oral sex and other erotica abounds in the text. I do think Homosexual marriage more a legal issue, or should be than a moral or ethical issue. If Homosexual marriage could be shown to harm the nation we should outlaw it, or limit it as much as possible. Two actions that rarely work ~

Rev A

 

So you are ok with the "crusade" in Iraq?

 

Indeed, many of your avatars depict an urge for violence in very noticeable ways.

 

No I think it was a mistake at least Iraq 2.

Rev A

 

Not only that, they are often cosmic and scary to an insane degree in their irrational implications and suggestions.

 

Why? Does this mean the "crusade" you believe in does have serious flaws? I guess my question is, what is this "crusade' you are talking about? Where is it occurring and who are the participants?

 

Careful! Art is often wrongly interpreted by the personal nuances of the viewer. The artist may be to conveying a different message to the world etc. Eh? Maybe you are seeing the ink blot to satisfy a subconscious desire eh? In other words maybe it is YOU that has a need for violence or to project or twist my personality to fit your preconceived notions of Christians?

Read my lips, as a great ,man once said or maybe he said it many times ; ~ (some of) my avatars depict violence but not a urge for violence, and that is coming from the artist not someone viewing the art.

Happy thanksgiving my friend, maybe after this you can eat turkey instead of crow?

Rev A

 

Why the avatar apologetics?

^That was a rhetorical question.

Happy thanksgiving, RevAnarchist.

By the way, Thanksgiving is a New World tradition. We don't celebrate the fourth Thursday in November around here.

 

No and after debating atheists and those with logical positivism tendencies I understand how what I say can be confusing. I will be blunt and brief as possible hoping I can covey a book length subject in a short forum reply.

By crusade I am speaking of Christendom and the movement of Christianity. Of course it was established well before the crusades, I use the first crusade as the starting point because its familiar etc. I do feel that most the wars recently fought that the USA or other mainly Christian (professed Christian population) participated in was a continuation of the movement. War is not a good thing, and I do not condone wars fought for any religious concern unless its self-defense. The movement, the crusade (of Christendom and western influence) is also cultural and ultimately it permeates everything, which is desired by this author. War can not compare to what I call 'cultural pacifism' to change minds, which is what a shooting war ultimately seeks to do.

I would like to see a Christian world one day not arrived at by a shooting war but rather by cultural pacification, in other words voluntarily vs Islams convert or maybe die. War would be an aberration and not wanted. The reasons I prefer Christianity over other paradigms and religious systems are obvious. However there are many small issues. Anyway, to put it in a nutshell many of us may abhor war but watch WW2 docudramas. I see the Christendom in the same way. I know watch prophesy coming true being fulfilled and its like watching one of those docudramas. Yes there is some real war etc which is a tragedy. Its something I accept as a necessary evil but do not condone. The crusade I speak of supporting is the march of prophesy being fulfilled, Christianity ebbing and flowing hopefully to the largest majority possible, with numbers come the ability for supernatural or prophesy to be fulfilled in the church age where our hands are the expression of the (supernatural) will of God being transferred into our ’real’ tangible world.

Note;

Theologically speaking Christianity is now in the 'church age', instead of supernatural events, the church is the body of God and Christ and we use our own hands ideas and minds to substitute for the miracles pf Jesus's time or before. In other words we Christians work in the tangible real world on the behest of God in a supernatural realm. We are not loose cannons but rather use the bible strictly to do Gods work much like a computer running a program. Lastly I have said quite a bit and do not have the skill to accurately express my understanding in the movement in the written word. So please if you do not understand something I will be happy to clarify etc.

Rev A

 

LOL Alright.

So you would be seeing this modern crusade as immoral?

You have fully grasped the mind of Islamic extremists, incidentally. Not that I mean to say you are one, just that its the same kind of directive of action.

I dont see how they are obvious. Could you explain why? Also could you explain why you are "against" Islam? I mean, is it just because they're your biggest opponent at the moment numerically speaking?

This, again, is the same kind of thought held by the Shia twelvers who see events in the ME as the sings of the return of the Mahdi and the initiation of end times.

Well you did seem to get muddled at the end here, but I think if you answer my above questions it will resolve itself in my understanding.

 

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So, the topic is supposed to be atheists explaining how their beliefs support this thesis:

Atheists are moral, loving and multicultural, and you might even find them in foxholes.

And yet, in a debate that begins with atheists stating that we will find them in foxholes, we are again at a point where all the assembled atheists can do is call others violent? But not the guys in the foxholes with us? Really?

See if you can figure out why #3 in the OP is sticking to atheism.

3. Atheists are aggressive and rude.

By all means atheists, please tell me how you begin a discussion about being involved in wars as a point of honor for atheism, but twist the topic in derisive insults and personal attacks that accuse others, by dint of your faith alone, of being wantonly violent because of .... wars?

Can we be any more hypocritical? Participation in war is a sign of honor for atheists, but demonstrates craven tendancies and malicious intent in Christians - participation in the exact same war.

Who says that atheism is obejective and rational?

And please note, exactly what happened in this thread happens in main stream atheism all the time:

http://www.atheists.org/military

More atheists in foxholes.

http://www.atheists.org/religion

Same website blaming us for war and grief.

How is this crap the result of logic?

 

Not really, no. I can't ever rule out the possibility that it exists, but it isn't going to impact my decisions.

Of course, many Christians do the same thing. You're trying to apply a phenomena exclusively to atheists when in fact everybody does this at one point in their lives.

But a consequence for what? Simply not being a Christian?

I agree. However, you seem to believe that Christians are more moral then Atheists.

Again, you're just generalizing. Atheists can have a moral code just like Christians can.

Nowhere did I say that I think I'd end up in hell. I'll leave that for a hypothetical God to decide and/or the Westboro Baptist church nutters.

 

And yet, you are nevertheless ofended by it?

Tell me, us all actually, how can something be both so important that you would lampoon someone for having the concept ... and yet, of no import at all - having no bearing whatsoever on your outlook.

I am confused by this juxtaposition.



Of

And here you do it. No objective standard to compare to, you are jst no more guilty than anyone else - therefore are not guilty?

Where exactly do you stand up in the spectrum of comparison and is that important in the slightest?

You are proving my point.

Of unrepentant sin.

I believe I was quite clear about this.

Over the long hual, I believe this to be so.

Take a look at the venerated from our ranks. Mother Theresa or Chris Hitchens. This is what we strive to be in our various sects. One spent a life time serving others. She is presented as the acme of Christian thought and ideology. Christ Hitchens or Richard Dawkins? Spent a lifetime lampooning others from disingenuous basis.

You tell me what that means.

On the individual basis, neither ideology conveys more morality - in the aggregate? I think the results speak for themselves.

But they don't. Every atheist on this forum has repeatedly told me that atheists have no doctrine. Now, when pressed about the down side of not having a set of accountable standards ... well, you could. But you don't.

I have pointed this out before, but if you have standards, they do not change simply to accomodate our views of ourselves as moral and upstanding. You cannot have and not have standards and doctrine. You cannot glorify the honor of atheist participation in battle, and then lampoon other peoplpe for participating in the same wars.

The problem with standards is that if you adhere to them, sometimes you fall short. So tell me, what exactly is the atheist position regarding war? And why do the same atheist posters shift their position so easily on the subject based on whether they are praising atheism or bashing religion? What kind of standard is that?

And when you see this as an atheist, what does this tell you? What do you do? Do you just ignore it? Or do you examine the evidence and form an opinion and apply it seeking an answer regarding humanity and warfare?

That is not a generalization either. It is happening right here in this thread and is easily found on many main stream websites and informational sources on atheism.

And yet, once again, you are bemused and angry when Christians tell you that you are going to hell. Who cares what a couple of nutters think? The KKK tell me that my racial and cultural tolerance is anethma. So long as they stay in the fringe, I pretty much ignore them.

I do not understand why hell, which atheists donot believe in, is both important and not?

 

I am not "offended" by anything. I don't know what gave you that impression.

No, actually, I'm just pointing out your double standard when it comes to atheists.

Does not being a Christian fall into this category?

For every example of moral religious person, I could likely name a violent person who committed his acts in the name of religion. But it would be pointless, and I don't believe religion is more immoral because of that. Atheism is a relatively new thing-- For a large chunk of human history someone would be persecuted for being one. Even today, we're not fully on the same stand as religion, so there's no way I'd be able to compare the histories of two and come to a conclusion of which one is more moral on the "aggregate".

They have no religious doctrine. Religion is not necessary for morality. I cannot tell you what all atheists believe because there is no single "atheist" doctrine. However, no matter what it is, they generally overlap with the "Golden Rule".

And again, you think I'm being "offended" by something. I'm not, I'm simply engaging in discussion regarding religious beliefs.

 

All the atheists screaming about hell? Maybe that.

How is the proveable fact that I have a published standard and doctrine to which I am held accountable, and you do not - a double standard?

Well, if you insist on twisting our doctrine of sin to view yourself as victim solely of denying God, that is your choice. That is the least of your worries so far as sin is concerned.

Knock yourself out ignoring them or explaining them away.

No you cannot. The vast majority of Christians are not violent. If we try comparison, how about you compare the nasty atheists out there? Stalin, Moa, Kim Jung Il, Castro (thanks for almost causing WWIII for the sake of petty Island political ploy), etc.

Sorry brother, but atheists are realtively new, and they are anything but persecuted. Take a look at history and you will see most religions have a history of persecution. Somehow we outgrow it though and are not victims trapped by our past.

Once again, are you self empowered or a victim. You cannot be both.

Just like atheist cannot be the result of an explainable process, but rest on absolutely no evidence because there is none.

Just like atheists cannot be honorable Soldiers in battle, and then turn around and call people wantonly and criminally violent - which you are doing again by gnoring all the good and comparing them to the bad, failing entirely to notice that we do not venerate the bad Christians - rather we study them to avoid their acknowledged mistakes.

What mistakes have atheists made? None? Right.

Atheism appears very much to be little more than taking the opposite spin of anything offered.

You guys keep telling us this, but you have no standards and no moral code. Yet somehow you maintain objective standards that you cannot spell out - simply apparently because the way religions do it, establishing standards, is flawed?

Take a gander at the golden rule. Do onto others as they do onto you? Or the Christian version, do onto others as you would have them do onto you?

For atheists? Who knows.

There is a down side to not having a doctrine and standards. You could simply acknowledge that simple point, or, you can continue to caillate between claiming standards and not being able to spell any out.

Atheism is not perfect. But when you define yourself solely in comparison to other things and you validate based on sperior comparison, its no wonder atheists wall paper over the shortcomings.

So, no atheists are offended by hell? Even thought they are screaming about it right here on this thread? Even though you are studiously avoiding the construct of sin in order to claim that being an atheist alone is not sin? Because it doesn't bother you? But it does, doesn't it?

Once again, it cannot be both.

Only a total lack of standards allows someone to fundamentally hold opposing positions. It is what it is.

 

Do you not know the difference between screaming about something and discussing it?

You said this:

Never mind the fact that you had absolutely no proof for this statement, I replied pointing out that this behavior is far from exclusive to atheists. Again, you're saying atheists do this while ignoring that Christians do it all the time. Thus, a double standard. The reality is that atheists and Christians differ very little in how they live their everyday lives when it comes to decicions regarding whether something is ethical or not.

It's a yes or no question.

Aww, but I never said otherwise! Notice how I said that going through and playing the "Well, you too!" game was pointless? No need to go ahead and do it yourself. I never said that there were no violent atheists, only that you cannot claim that Christians are more moral simply by pointing out a handful of good Christians. (Which I acknowledge that there are many, far more then violent ones.)

Indeed, atheists are not as persecuted as they once were. Nobody can deny that they were at one point though. Notice how I never claimed that other religions have not been persecuted, only that atheism's history is too short to compare with that of other religions.

Sorry, but not all atheists fit into your narrow stereotype. When have I said that atheists have never made mistakes? Never. Nor have I ever tried to paint myself as a victim, I have only stated the facts. Please don't put words in my mouth.

What are you talking about? Most atheists I know of don't "define themselves solely in comparison to other things". Again, I have no idea where you get these ideas from. Atheists are capable of having doctrines and standards. The problem is, atheism is a broad tent. Thus, it's impossible to say that all atheists follow a certain code, because it's a very diverse group.

Neutral, you seem to be confused. You see, this is a discussion forum. We discuss things. We do not "scream" about hell anymore then you scream about how evil atheists are. Atheists do not lack standards, they simply don't get theirs from a God. Buddhists, for example, are atheists but have moral standards. There is no universal "code of ethics" for atheists, because atheists are a very diverse group. Overall though, atheist morality differs very little from Christian morality. We believe in treating others as we would want to be, showing kindness, etc...

 

When you, and many other atheists mind you, say, "You are bad people because you think I am going to hell!" Your intent is not merely to discuss. It is bash Christians with the concept of hell and how mean you think we are bad people because we thought up the concept of hell just to torture you.

That is not a polite inquiry about our concept of hell, it is an accusation. One made commonly by atheists.

You have no standard. You have no moral code.

If you think you do, let me remind you that one atheist after another, says you have no doctrine.

Instead, exactly as I claim, and yet somehow, even as you do it, there is absolutely no proof? I asked you for a set of standards upon which you could judge yourself. None. I stated that atheists define themselves through comparison to others, and here you claim, without any thought apparently, that we are actually equals in our everyday lives?

Are we equals?

Well, lets check that.

1. Do you have a set of open standards that you ascribe to? That your peers ascribe to and that you hold yourself and each other accountable too?

And do not be so quick to toss out the law, for that is a punative system of adherence. I am talking about lying, adultry, sexual immorality, etc.

2. What do you do on Sunday?

3. Where exactly do you seek your wisdom from? Where do atheists congregate to talk about everyday problems and seek counsel for family and work issues?

4. What places have you set aside for contemplation? Seeking insight?

5. Do you pray? Fast? Seek opportunities for charity and mentorship? Do you belong to a fellowship that practices seeks to facilitate these things?

6. Do you tithe?

And the list goes on. So yes brother, Christians and atheists are very different beings.

This is not a trail, and you are neither a judge nor a lawyer. What gets all of a trip to hell is unrepentant sin. Period.

But go ahead, prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no God, and that rejecting him is thus not a sin but common sense. I will await with rapture you detailed scientific explanation and confirming tests.

In the mean time, please note the details of what I provided you that, just as I said, you have simply hand waived away.

If you understand the concept of hell anough to be pissed off about it, then you should understand perfectly where I am coming from.

I believe I sighted a list of 'heros' not villians and contrasted them. Hitchens vs. Mother Theresa as the acme of our faiths. They paint very different pictures of the ideal do they not?

That is what I did, and it is you who claimed that you could find a bad one for every good one, not me brother.

Additionally, you continue to avoid the point not of villany, but of the ideal, by prevaricating through comparison.

In sharp contrast, I am offering up Mother Theresa and Chris Hitchens and asking you to offer up an objective analysis of the two by the standards of morality you claim.

Service? Charity? Selflessness? Honor? Morality?

A woman who dedicated herself to others and is revered as a Saint as a result.

And a man who subjectively picks and chooses history to needle others from a less than full picture in order to ... become a best seller.

These are the acme of our faiths. And they are telling in their result.

Oh, and what great persecution have atheists dealt with? Roman legions dispatched to slay you wherever you were found? Did a group of Pagans attempt to alaughter you in the desert? Was war fought to suppress your views that lasted 30 years and nearly depopulated central Europe? Was your prophet cruxified?

Agh, they used to teach Creationism as science. Some people do not like atheists, for which apparently there is absolutely no reason whatsoever not to like an atheists - right up until he sits down next to you and says, "So, you are Christian, huh?"

"In the history of the world, nothing has been the catalyst of more grief, hatred, war, and crime than religion. Religion allows a person to hate, kill, torture, or steal, while allowing him to recuse himself of all blame. Religion causes people to break the laws of ethics and morality in the name of a god.

Religion dulls the mind and weakens the senses. It makes "God did it" seem like a reasonable answer to anything at all, squelching questions of why, how, and when, and replacing these questions with repeated mantras and prayers to nobody.

Religion is exquisitely profitable, with most adherents tithing a portion of their income. The churches, synagogues, and mosques, which do little to serve their community outside of "outreach programs" (marketing and recruiting), pay almost no taxes.

Religion spreads like disease through societies, rarely coexisting with pre-existing mythologies, rather preferring to conquer or be conquered. Religion is anything but tolerant."

http://www.atheists.org/religion

Are there not atheists right here in this very thread doing just this? Is it persecution or consequence you see?

 

I earned that, so a tit for a tat and the bill is paid. I know as a christian a bill should not exist eh?

Thanks

Nor the fourth of July I suspect! Sorry I often forget to look at the location or maybe it was a slip by an sometimes arrogant what used to be called 'ugly American' (at least when I had the pleasure to be abroad back in the late 80's) and a often times (when threatened ) arrogant Christian akin to the slip of the Freudian tongue? Lastly I apologize to the members for butchering the grammar of this reply...

Rev A

 

Hmmmm? Where is page 28? There is a promise of it on the counter...