A basic question for "pro-lifers" who agree to abortion in cases of rape-

Agreed on the planned pregnancy .. however, very few, if any, planned pregnancies end in abortion that would be an exact opposite of the planned part, one only has to look at the reasons given for abortion to see that there are no planned pregnancies being aborted.

The thing is all pregnancies, whether planned or not, cause injuries, the crux of the issue is whether the female accepts (consents) to those injuries and by continuing the pregnancy to birth she does.

One has to look at the extended time period those injuries are taking place over, during the skydive it is a relatively short time period not so in pregnancy. It would be like asking the question you have asked if the skydive took nine months to complete, and in that case then the quantitative nature of the injuries would justify withdrawing the consent.

 

All the things that are strictly subjective, and none of which apply to forcing a woman to use her body against her will, risking her health and life and causing permanent damage to her body.

 

There is no scientific or medical answer to when life begins. Until there is, people have to use their intellect.

 

Women have to use their intellect to determine their own best life choices.

 

How can you be so callous as to make a statement about the closings of Planned Parenthood Clinics where yes abortions are sometimes done....and say....WE ARE WINNING!

The reason why Planned Parenthhod Clinics are less now then they used to be is because of two reasons....Reason #1. Abortions are covered by Healthcare and can be performed in any hospital.

Reason #2. More women both young and older have become more familiar with Morning After Pills and Plan B Drugs.

When these drugs are taken at least by the next morning after unprotected intercourse they will prevent a Fertilized Egg from attaching itself to the Uterine Wall....thus no abortion is necessary if the woman takes these drugs if she does not wish to become pregnant and have a child.

Newer drugs are coming out for both MEN AND WOMEN that simply once taken will for 72 hours not allow Sperm Cells to Fertilize Egg Cells.

AboveAlpha

 

What's shocking is the alleged "Pro-Choicers' in here who believe the rapist can force a woman to have an abortion or have his baby, which they feel he doesn't have to support.....so it's all fair

 

About 1/3rd of all abortions are performed at Planned Parenthood clinics, hardly a "sometimes" procedure.

30-35% of their funding comes from the taxpayer - that's my money, and I strongly object to my money being used to promote and perform murder. (And don't be so naïve as to suggest that taxpayer money isn't being used for abortions, that's an idiotic argument from people who don't have a clue how finance operates).

We are winning because people are becoming educated and turning against unrestricted abortion. Abortion will never be totally banned - and it should not be totally banned - but it will be regulated and abortion as birth control will end

Also, abortions for true medical reasons have always been covered, and many MD's will perform an abortion when the medical situation dictates that it is appropriate.

 

ONLY 1 IN 11,000 ABORTIONS ARE PERFORMED AFTER 21 WEEKS OF PREGNANCY.



A fetus is viable when it reaches an
“anatomical threshold” when critical organs, such as the lungs and
kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature
enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which
is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last
menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator,
which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs
into the bloodstream.

Thus a LATE TERM ABORTION can be considered Late Term ONLY after at least 23 weeks gestation have past.

The total number of very late term abortions where the Fetus has fairly well developed lungs and a heart are by percentage INCREDIBLY SMALL IN PERCENTAGE...less than 1%.

And most of these abortions are done for Medical Reasons or Birth Defects.

AboveAlpha

A fetus is viable when it reaches an
“anatomical threshold” when critical organs, such as the lungs and
kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature
enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which
is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last
menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator,
which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs
into the bloodstream.

 

Your arguments have already been discussed in this thread, and dismissed. Viability is not a factor in determining the human status of the baby.

 

The U.S. Supreme Court has made that decision.

A Fetus does not become a Human Being with Personage Status until it is born, c-sectioned or other and can survive with or without mechanical support.

The Umbilical Cord must be cut and the Fetus now Human Being Baby if it survives early birth forced or not...as 23 weeks is about as soon as it is possible for a Fetus to survive with mechanical help outside and detached from the mothers womb.

Until a Fetus can survive either by itself or with mechanical help.....it is not a Baby nor does it have Personage Status.

AboveAlpha

 

That's existing law. The law is not absolute, it is not always correct, it does not always dispense justice, it is frequently driven by politics, and it is often divorced from reality and regular life.

And many states have laws which treat the unborn baby as a person in situations in which the baby is killed in a car crash or criminal act. Times and attitudes are changing.

Even with the law denying a baby its rightful status, there is still social pressure, education, financial pressure, political pressure, and other means to stop the rampant use of abortion.

 

Not a BABY if not born naturally or C-section or other.

Those state laws that will eventually be struck down in U.S. Circuit Court by making a person who kills a pregnant woman guilty of a double homicide....well what they have done is since a person cannot be tried for the same crime twice and as these State Prosecuters have charged these people with Double Homicide instead of 2 seperate Homicides....these Murderers are going to get off scott free because of this stupidity.

AboveAlpha

 

Its still a baby even if you don't call it a baby. Most of the pro-abortionists in this thread seem to be stuck in the dictionary. That's not going to win any arguments.

 

It does not matter wat you call it or what I call it.

The ONLY thing that matters is what the Supreme Court of the United States calls it....and it is a FETUS....until it is born naturally, via C-section or other....and is able to survive with it's umbilical cord cut by itself or with machine aid.

Since 23 weeks of gestation is the length of time a Fetus needs to develop enough to exist outside the woman and detached from the umbilical cord and with machine help....23 weeks become academic as to what is the amount of passed time that would define a late term abortion.

Personally....studies are showing....even studies done by the Roman Catholic Science Team....that Morning After and Plan B Drugs and the education of women of all ages to such drugs is lowering the number of abortions DRAMATICALLY as if the Fertilized Egg cannot implant itself in the Uterine wall....no pregnancy...no abortion.

I always laugh when Highly Religious People state they have no issue in the use of Fertility Clinics to make a couple pregnant....yet a Fertility Clinic Fertilizeds many Human Eggs and only uses a few for implantation as the rest are discarded and die.

So.....double standards I suppose?

AboveAlpha

 

I was already asked about IVF in this thread. I oppose it for the reason you mention.

The subject here is not late term abortion, but when the baby becomes a human with the rights and protections awarded to all human beings. Its definitely a human at 21 weeks since that's the earliest a baby has survived. Somewhere between conception and 21 weeks, it becomes a human being. Science cannot answer the question. The law is based on the concept of erring on the side of caution, so the prudent course is to assume its a human at conception unless proven otherwise. Current law says otherwise, its wrong.

 

23 weeks of development is correct...any 21 week survivors is an aboration.

Still....that time be it 21 weeks or 23 weeks really means nothing as it is not defined as a Baby or Person yet.

What we can see now is the moment when the Fetuses Frontal Lobes begin to light up and work as this is the beginning of Sentience but even when a Fetus is brought to full term actual sentience does not occur unlil weeks after birth.

Look....I abhore abortion just like most people....but if we want to lowerthe number of abortions we need more education about Plan B and Morning After.

AboveAlpha

 

Babies who have survived when born at 21 weeks were conceived using IVF, therefore the actual date of conception is known. When babies are conceived naturally, the length of a pregnancy is calculateted from the first day of the pregnant woman's last menstrual period. It is known that women normally conceive mid way through the month, so had the IVF baby been conceived naturally, there would be another two weeks added to the gestation, so in effect they were 23 weeks when they were born,

 

with respect you are 100% wrong on that count, it is not a baby until it is born, whether that birth takes place at 21 weeks or at full term, and to suggest that pro-choice (not pro-abortionists as there is no such thing) are stuck in the dictionary when pro-lifers are stuck in hyperbole and emotionally laden incorrect terminology is more than a little hypocritical.

 

and as already explained whether it is a 'person' from conception or not until birth makes little difference to the legality of abortion.

I find it intellectually dishonest for pro-lifers to claim that simply deeming the fetus as person will wipe the majority of legal abortions from the face of the earth, all that tells me is that pro-lifers are ignorant of history and of other legal standings either that or they wilfully ignore them.

There is only one way that a fetus as a person can side-track the restrictions that ALL persons have and that is for it to be made a 'super'-person not held to the same restrictions that all other born people are.

A fetus as a person would have to have a mens rea (guilty mind) "rating" for legal purposes, as it has no ability to make voluntary choices it would be "rated" as mentally incompetent and as such cannot be legally held responsible for its actions .. however, that does not mean it has free reign to impose onto another person without their consent. The law recognises there are two types of actions, voluntary and involuntary but even so a involuntary action can still cause injury to another person and as such it is the states duty to protect it's people from both non-consented voluntary and involuntary actions.

So unless pro-lifers are going to wholesale change numerous laws and precedences then a fetus being deemed a person is NOT the golden bullet they think it is.

 

No, you're just making it more difficult for poor women. Rich women can still easily get an abortion.