"A Human Being" in ANY stage of Development is "a Human Organism"

I guess some pro-choicers still need to start with the basics.

My apologies to anyone who has already moved on from this part of the debate.

The pro-abortion denials seem to continue, so I guess we have to try to educate again.

Before we continue, please keep in mind that this thread is only to establish the fact that a human being
while in any stage of their development (in the womb) is "a human organism."

This is about the biological facts.

This is not necessarily about personhood or abortion rights - though it is easy to see how it all ties together.

Here are a few definitions and references to get us started.


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ORGANISM:

1: a living thing that has (or can develop) the ability to act
or function independently [syn: organism, being]

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ORGANISM

Definition: Any living thing. All organisms are comprised of one or more cells, eat, and reproduce.

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Definitions of organism

1. [n] - a system considered analogous in structure or function to a living body
2. [n] - a living thing that has (or can develop) the ability to act or function independently



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"The organism in a stage between zygote to fetus is called an embryo*"

"*Embryo: the embryo of mammals is defined as the stage of organism between the first division of zygote and the time it becomes a fetus through further development. For humans, the embryo is defined as the implantation of fertilized egg in the uterus through the eighth week of its development. The embryo will be called a fetus after the eighth week until birth." ~ Library of Congress Science Reference

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More references will follow.

Please read and consider the definitions before answering the poll question.​

 

It's not a person until a majority vote of 9 people with no science backgrounds, in black robes...appointed...not elected...say it's a person.

Until that time that said majority of 9 people in black robes says it's a person....

It's not a person, even if it is an organism.

So please don't bring science and facts into this discussion.

 

Are blood and semen cells "human organisms"?....note ALL the definitions that CL offers.

 

Here's some more proof that the unborn are human organisms.

http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2009/06/abortion-debate-reasoned-pro-life.html

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Sperm is not a human organism. It doesn't have enough genetic information to be one. It's only half.

 

What about birth control? Are you against it? It doesn't kill human life.

 

Look at the defintion Chuz offered here-

Definitions of organism

1. [n] - a system considered analogous in structure or function to a living body
2. [n] - a living thing that has (or can develop) the ability to act or function independently



1. A sperm cell can be considered analogous in structure or form to a living body. How often have you seen them compared to "tadpoles"?

2. A sperm cell CAN DEVELOP the ability to act or function independently in conjunction with an ovum. So at the least (AS YOU ADMITTED) it is "half" a human organism by Chuz' definition.

Why do you support the death of half a human organism, Sam????

 

That's one interesting way of looking at it.

The other way to rule a sperm out as an organism is to apply the part of the definition "or can develop" as a test.

"Can a sperm cell" alone - even in the most condusive environment - enable a sperm cell an ability to develop the ability to act independently, to reproduce, etc.?

And the answer to those questions is no.

So, it aint one.

 

He was being sarcastic.

 

What's your point? Sperm is not even alive, it's just cells. So what; who cares if sperm cells die? They are not even people. Fetuses and embryos are people.

 

Exactly... and even if they want to claim that a sperm CELL is also a person and should be treated like one?

(insane as that would be?)

Let them!

It would only prove our claims about children - post conception - that much easier.

 

Who cares? Whatever species the soon to be terminated fetus belongs to is irrelevant.

 

You DISAGREE with those who say an embryo is "just cells"....with the same fervor you say sperm cells are "just cells".

Plus as we've discussed, you don't even consider it to be a "person" until AFTER it is incapable of becoming twins.....thus you are fine with abortion for a "living thing that has (or can develop) the ability to act or function independently"....aren't you?

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Read that carefully.

He mocks an idea....then says that same inane idea....helps him make his case.

ROFLMAO

 

Please pay closer attention.

The question has nothing to do with species.

Is a human being (or any other mammal) an "organism" while they are in the zygote, embryo and or fetal stages of their life?

Or not.

 

This embryo will grow into an infant and then eventually into a full grown human.



Sperm cells are, shall we say, incomplete. Sperm cells, in and of themselves, do not have the potential to grow into an infant or a full grown adult, unless they combine with an egg cell. Haven't your read your biology textbooks? When sperm cells combine with the egg cells, it turns into a totally new organism. DUH! Pro-choicers deny science.

 

Yes, but you've already said you would NOT curtail abortion rights for a zygote which is still capable of dividing into twins because you believe it is NOT a "person" yet.

Correct?

THIS TOO will "will grow into an infant and then eventually into a full grown human."

But you have no problem "killing" it.

 

It cannot be a person if it can split into different persons.

 

You and I might have to debate that sometime but I'm not going to do it at the risk of diverting attention away from the things we agree on..

 

Okay, I agree to not derail this discussion with this topic. I may create a new thread about this topic sometime in the future.

 

Then, since you ONLY oppose abortion of "living human organisms"....but NOT pre-twinning zygotes....

you don't believe pre-twinned zygotes are "living human organisms"...do you???

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And IF that debate occurs, I will bet that Sam will take up Chuz' position on "pre-twinning zygotes" and San will abandon his current postion on them.

 

I have one for you as well

An individual living thing that can react to stimuli, reproduce, grow, and maintain homeostasis. It can be a virus, bacterium, protist, fungus, plant or an animal.

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Organism

Interesting word in that definition - homeostasis

(1) The tendency of an organism or a cell to regulate its internal conditions, usually by a system of feedback controls, so as to stabilize health and functioning, regardless of the outside changing conditions

(2) The ability of the body or a cell to seek and maintain a condition of equilibrium or stability within its internal environment when dealing with external changes

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Homeostasis

Questions :

Can a 2 week fetus react to stimuli?
Can a 2 week fetus reproduce?
Can a 2 week fetus maintain homeostasis?

Answer to all of the above .. No.

Fairly easy to find definitions to fit the premise.

 

The question (and answer to your point) is this:

"Does a human organism in the first days of it's life "have the ability to develop" traits and characteristics (like homeostasis)?"

If the answer is YES?

They are in fact an organism - according to the definitions provided.

 

A 2 year old human cannot reproduce either, but it's still considered an organism because it has the potential to reproduce eventually, once it reaches later stages of development.

 

Funny I see no mention at all of have the ability to develop in the definition provided, are you now changing definitions to suit?

 

If it doesn't matter, then why reference it as a human being? The personhood/human being debate only serves as a red herring in the discussion of abortion rights. It really serves no purpose other to drag entire forums into a game of definitions and word play.

 

If pro-choicers accept those scientific facts that the fetus is a human organism, then their entire argument will fall apart.