A New Israel in the making.

Down with Zionism, ' Relevant '. How many more times must you be instructed.

 

Zionism=Israel

 

In your head. Israel is a country. Zionism is a stinking doctrine of ethnic cleansing. You defend the latter by hiding behind the former.

 

Actually in your offerings.

Ill go further...Israel is a permanent, sovereign country. Zionism is the doctrine of maintaining and supporting the state of Israel as an independent nation.

Its that simple.

Funny for someone who hides behind terms like "neozionists" and "antizionist" to be criticizing someone else for being disingenuous.

 

Israel could exist independent of the ethnic cleansing and murderous doctrine of Zionism. You defend occupation, murder and ethnic cleansing because you, mistakenly, associate these crimes with Judaism.

 

Sorry to jump into your conversation, moon and MrRelavant. But I'd like to express my thoughts.

Israel is a country, and surely does exist. Israel claimed its independence in 1948 and declared borders (the proclimation and letter to UNSC define Israel's borders) and then in 1949 was accepted into the Untied Nations via resolution 273. Sure, you can argue that once Israel was formally established, that somehow the Jewish land ownership raised from 6%, all the way to 78% of all of historic Palestine. Of course much of this land was seized under the discriminatory "Absentee Property Law". And that much more of the land was acquired illegaly by force, which is in violation of both the Hague Regualtions and United Nations charters. Not to mention the fact 88% or more of the land Israel was established on land that in law belonged to Arab owners. But what it all boils down to, is that Israel is a recognized state, even if it somehow does not have "official borders".

Though, I do agree with MrRelvant's first claim as I just explained... But the second claim where he says Zionism = Israel, I do not agree with. Why I think this way? Well, Israel does not represent world Jewery. And already knowing that, its quite obvious to say that not all Jews are Zionists. So, a nation that claims to be representing the Jewish people, can not represent Zionism amongst them. Especially when about eight out of every ten Jews do not live within Israel. The problem is, Israel does not represent world Jewery, so it can not represent Zionism.

I'd also like to point out that it would be quite odd to claim that a colonialist movement represents a sovereign country, that it created. For example, the 13 British colonies eventually became part of the United States of America after a war. When I think of Zionism, I personally think of a term that was coined by Nathan Birnbaum to refer to a political ideology or colonial movement, concerned with the need to develope a separate national homeland for the Jews as a form of self-emancipation. And as we all probably know, just because this movement was to establish a Jewish homeland, it does not mean they ever hesitated to deal with the most prominent anti-semites to gain their objectives. Although, I suppose if you look at Cultural Zionism, which believed in development of Hebrew and other cultural national trappings, then in some sort of strange way, it could mean Israel. But you wouldn't want to make the definition too broad, since Zionism is not usually referred as such.

EDIT: Oh and I do agree with moon about one thing. Zionism does have a very infamous past. After all their intentions, and actions were sometimes cruel. Whether it be their discriminatory policies, cooperating with the Nazis, or even some murderous acts that were done in the name of Zionism...

 

Never forget that Israel is not universally recognized. It is only recognized by a majority of States in the United Nations- that very organization which Israel stands in default of through dozens of condemnatory resolutions.

 

In your wet dream... Zionism is the Jewish national movement of rebirth and renewal in the land of Israel - the historical birthplace of the Jewish people.

http://www.adl.org/durban/zionism.asp

 

Yes, I understand that. But it still doesn't change much. Many nations aren't universally recognized. Its not evident that recognition is necessary for an entity to be a state. The existence in fact of a new state or government is not dependent upon recognition of other states. In fact, there isn't yet a universal agreement on whether or not recognition is necessary to be a state. Since there is no treaty that would reflect international agreement about the significance of recognition. Also, an entity can be a state if it qualifies in relation to Montevideo Convention.

This also in a sense could qualify Palestine as a state. Palestine does not have full independence though, since our land has been occupied for so long.

EDIT: By the way Moon, I do partially agree with both you and MrRelavant. As I explained in my previous post.

 

Israel does not claim that, you arrive at wrong conclusions based on wrong assumptions. Israel has its doors open to all jewish people and Israel is synonymous with Zionism ( Zionism is a movement for the establishment and support of a Jewish state in the ME), but just like any other democracy Israel represents the views of the Israeli constituency.

 

If a nation claims that its the "Jewish State", then presumably, it could be interpreted as such. And like I had said Israel was established through the ideological colonilist movement of Zionism. Zionism is not Israel, since Israel's "constituency" are not all self proclaimed Zionists.

EDIT: By the way I'm not sure if people on this forum are just knit-picking, and only picking and choosing what they'd like to reply to.

 

Appreciate the rational attitude.

The reason I say zionism=Israel is because I know moon in context. The thing you must understand is when he says he wants Zionists and Zionism destroyed he means along with the state of Israel. In other words for zionism to be minimized or even worse erased....Israel must go entirely.

Hes a one stater.

Im aware of the more radical visons of zionism and even tho he attempts to paint me as such a hyperzionist when its comes to Israel ,I personally think zionism nothing more than the support of the state of Israel in opposition to those that want it disappeared.

 

I agree with most of what you've just said in this particular post. Although, Zionism is more than simply that (as I'm sure you know anyway).

As you just said you recognize Zionism as some sort of opposition to the people who want Israel destroyed. If we look at it from a similar view of how you just described Zionism, both sides could have a similar story. The Palestinians who have been nearly wiped from the map with their land under Israeli military occupation for decades. Then the Zionists, who have got criticism and even attacked because of disagreement with their policies.

I consider myself more pro-Palestinian, it may be because I am Palestinian. But it just as easily can be my anger for the policies the Israeli government pursues or the occupation. Don't get me wrong though, this doesn't mean I tolerate the injustices the Palestinians may commit.

 

According to those that wrote the it, who, as if by magic, just so happened to be Hebrew.

Fancy that.

 

You are certainly free to interpret it any way you choose but Israel never claims to represent the Jewish people. France is a French state, does not mean it represents French Canadians, Iran is an Islamic state but it does not represent the Somali muslims...

As far as I know Jewish americans who get in trouble overseas are represented by the american embassy, French jews are represented by the french consul, british jews are represented by the queen Israel does not attempt to represent either of them. Nor does Israel claim to represent the views of all Jews, not even all Israeli jews, it's really impossible as two jews usually have at least 3 opinions on any issue

Israel has always been and remains the sole goal of Zionism, Israel was established by Zionists for the Jews (not for Zionists only). I think you are splitting hairs here.

 

Agreed. Israel was the goal of Zionism. I suppose the idea of Israel = Zionism could make sense.

I think I have a fresh idea on this now. Israel is not a Zionist state, since Zionism is an ideological movement. Zionism pertains to people, not nations as a whole.

 

This is correct. Hamas is a Zionist entity and has every right to be as Zionist as the Likud party.

 

If that's how you would like to look at it. I'm not disagreeing.

 

No, ' Zion ' is a spiritual attainment, not a physical place. Anybody thinking that ' Zion ' is, or ever was, the physical area of earth, rocks and sand which is home to the Palestinians is one crazy on the loose. These people are not seekers after spirituality. They are estate-agents and others working for the military-industrial complex for purely earthly purposes . Religious Zionism ? It ain't squatters in yarmulkes shooting Palestinian farmers and uprooting olive trees. You've been sold a lie pie . Spit it out after chewing, if you can.

 

Wrong.zionism does not conform to your delusions.
Zionism is all about establishing a state in the land of israel for the jews

 

You mean was home to some palestinians before they foolishly backed the losing side in a war of genocide and ethnic cleansing against Jews. The Palestinians got what they deserved. Launching and losing a war has consequences.

 

Not necessarily. Does Republicanism=America?

 

You would be wrong in your interpretation of Zionism then. The Zionist agenda includes the stated policy of continuing expansion into 'Eretz Israel', and what they consider their Biblical heritage, regardless of who lives on that land whom they will evict, harass and attack in pursuit of their absurd religious agenda.

 

Hmm.... I've been reading through these new posts. Its actually very interesting.

 

Well Israel launched the war in '67, so I guess you think they deserve being pounded by rockets in the occupied territories?

Founding a state/illegal immigration in/to a land that does not belong to one has its consequences as well.