I try to be as loose about this as possible because there is a difference between depicting and condoning. But I reserve this mainly for people who have real merit as artists. Modern misogynistic party bling rap is rarely artistic. I don't even consider it rap. Real rap has an element of legitimate social protest. Very rarely are the lyrics enough to push me away if I like the music, but it has happened. A notable example is Eminem's 97 Bonnie & Clyde. I like the music but in the end the words were beyond anything I wanted to hear. I think people react differently to music with violent content than movies. Serial killer movies are a popular genre and you almost never hear anyone complaining that serial killer movies condone serial killing. But if you sing about the same thing in a song, suddenly eveyone is up in arms. I've tried to figure out why this is but have not come up with a good answer. Maybe people take music more personally, though movies are arguably more affecting.
I dislike most Christian music because it seems like the music is secondary to the religion. Also when the lyrics are understood, I don't like the annoyingly preachy songs. I like Evanescence and Plumb, both overtly Christian (though Evanescence doesn't always stick to the themes). And when it comes down to it, a lot of bands are sometimes Christian (Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath, for instance). I can't stand Skillet, Fireflight, Flyleaf, or most other Christian bands that Pandora subjects me to. And what's weird is that I can sometimes detect the Christinness of a band without understanding the lyrics... I think the bulk of Christian rock bands have a certain "fake" sound to them that my ears pick up and find irritating. I only like Christian bands that are playing inspired music, not trying to convert me through music. And I think there's a connection. The preachier bands (like Fireflight and Flyleaf) have the fakest sounds. The musically superior bands tend to write lyrics based on their personal faith and inspiration through God, which doesn't annoy me.* *based on personal anecdotal listening, not scientific research
I guess I specifically meant music that comes from the religion of Atheism, just as Christian music comes from the religion of Christianity.
Well, here is the thing. I just finished up a lengthy training exercise, and one of the things that I had to do was check our 'rear' so to speak (make sure the Soldiers cleaned up after themselves on a range or Assembly Area), or go to higher and pass along information or receive it. The distances travelled were often in excess of several hours, and, because the sites were in remote locations (we don't shoot bullets in training right next to houses - for some reason?), I could basically get two radio stations for most of the trips. The two radio stations were one that I would call a normal pop station and the other just happened to be a Christian rock station. I found myself switching back and forth between the channels, and, quite frankly, I was amazed at the quality of some of the music on the Christian Station - much of it, in terms of quality, was better than what I was hearing on the pop station. That is what got me thinking about the issue, and wondering about how music influences us - or whether it merely reflect who and what we are? If we think back far enough, if any of you are old goats, then I am sure you remember attempting to impress a girl or boy with a mix tape of your favorite music. Its an easy bridge of commonality to build a bridge upon. As a younger man though, I studiously avoided any Christian Music. Even if the music was good, as soon as I hear the word God - I was gone. In sharp contrast, when my brother came home with a song titled, "treat her like a prostitute," I could not have cared less. Now, older (do I need to say how much older?) and having seen the reality of human trafficking an prostitution, not too mention being absolutely horrified at a relationship based on objectified women, I was a little taken aback with the realization. Why avoid the word God, but be fine with .... prostitution? On the flip side, it certainly wasn't music that caused me to covert to Christianity, but there is still that wonder of why I so studiously avoided it? In a larger sense, at least attempting to be an honest man, it kind of makes me wonder what our perception allow us to be open to in the first place? And, of course, wondering whether we really see what we need to see at all? Or, perhaps we just get older, a little wiser, and we start realizing the avoiding things rarely deals with things?
I think it depends on how the artist portrays it. If it is sung from the first person, i.e. something the vocalist feels he or she could do, its one thing. Something that I tend to avoid. However, it could be metaphorical, and sung from 2nd or 3rd person, in which case it could be acceptable in my opinion. Mudvayne's "Nothing to Gein" is a good example, the lyrics are quite graphic because they are written from the perspective of the demented man, Ed Gein. However, it is behavior that Chad Grey himself does not condone. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TaUTqcB6Ck"]Mudvayne - Nothing To Gein with Lyrics - YouTube[/ame]
There may be some of this as well, but my point is that even this is treating music differently from movies (just juxtaposing these two as an example you understand), and I don't really see why the different treatment.
Actually, Neutral, I find this very strange and would like to talk about it for a second. You say you actively avoided the word God or were annoyed whenever the word popped up or something like that. Can you say something more about this? I think I recall you saying that you used to be an atheist. I can tell you quite honestly that I as a dyed-in-the-wool atheist am not bothered in the least by encountering the trappings of religion. You could bury me up to my neck in Bibles and it wouldn't phase me. I would be perfectly fine wearing a teeshirt that says "I LOVE JESUS" around town. "I love God" produces no reaction in me. "I'm going to burn in hell because I'm such a horrible sinner" produces not one iota of fear. Heck, I worked in churches for more than 5 years and felt not a single rapturous inclination. So I find your comment about this very intriguing.
Man I love old tyme gospel hymns me. To God Be the Glory and Blessed Assurance are a couple of my favorites. But it's funny you should post this because just tonight I was riding in my car listening to the radio playing The Rose by Bette Midler. I only caught the end of it and boy, do I love that song. So I was disappointed because I only got to hear the end of it and I was wishing I could hear another beautiful song like that one. So then they started playing this song I had heard before, some contemporary Christian song... I Can Only Imagine. I have never cared for contemporary Christian, but have always loved the classics, as I said. BUT MAN, that is one heck of a song! I swear I may have even felt the presence of the Holy Spirit while I listened to it. I was all tingly with goosebumps, just like that feels, but it was even stronger than I remember from my old Christian days. Yes, I may convert back to Christianity just for the great music. Seriously.
Music is as much about the emotions it evokes as the technical quality of the performance. I don't really have much of a problem with songs about a person's relationship with a deity; I have more of a problem with songs designed to glorify a deity. There's a subtle difference there. In general, I find most explicitly "Christian" music to be shallow and largely meaningless. That's not to say that any song that mentions god or Christian beliefs is bad... It's a matter of tone and flavor, not really some concrete measurement. Would I choose to listen to it? It depends. The fact that it's Christian would not itself keep me from listening to it, but it would be one strike against it in my opinion. These are all things that really do exist. Listening to a serious song about god seems kind of childish. It would be like listening to a serious song about darth vader. While it's true that many songs do discuss the deeds and perspectives of fictional characters, in most cases these fictional personas roughly relate to real people and their real experiences. There's a difference between relevant subject matter and wholesome subject matter; songs about crime and violence may not be wholesome, but they can often be relevant. I guess I would say that relevance is more important than the subject being a wholesome one. Listening to music about a subject does not automatically equate to advocacy for the subject matter.
Not an atheist song, but one of my favorite songs to date. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa6xquyj5X0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa6xquyj5X0[/ame]
soooo .. are you suggesting that atheists will always choose crappy gangsta rap over gospel music ...because the idea of someone mentioning God in a song offends our sensibilities more than violent and misogynistic lyrics? lols ... some of my favourite music would be "church" music (Gregorian chants, baroque composers, gospel songs, a lot of world music with religious references) and I have no problem with people singing about God ... if I like the music I like the music ... and I recognise the context of it. unless the lyrics are either nauseously corny or just plain disgusting, I don't have a problem with them.
There is certainly an assumption among some that rock music is 'devil's music', even when it is overtly Christian in content - I find that a fairly silly thing to say, to be honest! My impression is that 'Christian rock' has, over the years, become far more 'acceptable' both to rock music fans and to Christians. There have always been rock musicians and fans who were also Christians, but now they seem to be more able to express that, which is a good thing. Many rock songs are written to be personal, about personal experiences and personal views about the world, so I can't see anything wrong with that including religious aspects if that is what the writer finds to be important and personal to them. The fact that such expressions have become more accepted is probably why the standard of the music has improved over the years - expressing personal religious views through rock music is no longer in any sense a 'career killer' for a decent musician, whereas it used to be something that was avoided by most people (apart from a dedicated few, within whom musical talent seemed often less important than 'the message', and those seeking a 'new' marketing 'gimmick'!). I'm not surprised that there is now plenty of decent quality music to fill a Christian rock music radion station's playlist. The days of the 'it's about God so, it must be good and worthy' kind of religious broadcasting seem thankfully to have gone (and may they never return)! The reality, of course, is that most rock music is not overtly 'Christian', and never will be (even though some of the people playing this 'not overtly Christian' music will certainly themselves be Christians), but that doesn't mean that Christian musicians shouldn't be able to express their beliefs in their music (either constantly or occasionally, as they feel fits them best), and doesn't mean that Christians and others shouldn't be able to appreciate the music they like, whatever the 'message' the lyrics involve.
This is actually a valid complaint. For a long time, Christian music was lame. I think even a lot of Christians probably had to stomach the music just to enjoy the message. But fortunately, in recent times Christian music has caught up with other genres. There are actually a lot of decent Christian bands out there today. A lot of heavy ones too. Living Sacrifice is pretty good. I'm not sure how you're getting this out of Maynard. He's about as cynical as they come. I can cite numerous examples that you'll be very familiar with if you'd like me to back up my point.
As an atheist this song rocks. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h59mDlBSt7o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h59mDlBSt7o[/ame]
Christian music is gay. I'll take Kurt Winter over your Mormon freak any day. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xg4c0kFVw0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xg4c0kFVw0[/ame]
Actually, I would be interested. I am not interested in being right or wrong on the point, however when it comes to lyrics I like to hear what others have to say. Especially concerning Tool. The cynicism that I get seems to be directed towards the sheep aspect of society, but not against the pursuit of greater understanding.
Its an interesting though, perhaps it is because there is not a visual disconnect? A person in a movie is obviously separate from yourself, however music may be viewed differently.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS3vpAWW2Zc"]Handel: Messiah, For unto us a child is born (Sir Colin Davis, Tenebrae, LSO) - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnGc-6GHQps"]Nirvana - Jesus Don't Want Me For A Sunbeam (Live, unplugged) - YouTube[/ame]
Neutral, this question interests me. I am not going to bother reading all the responses in this thread, but just address the original post... Being non-religious, I would probably not listen to Christian music. The meaning behind the music is extremely important to me, and unlike the general public, I am one who actually takes music seriously and doesn't just casually listen to whatever crappy pop is on the radio. So anyway, being non-religious, I obviously can't really connect to, or agree with, the messages in Christian music. Now sometimes the musical aspect of a song can overpower it's lyrical message, but personally I have not heard much Christian music with amazing-enough music to make me disregard the actual message. (If you think you know of a band that IS good enough, I'd be delighted to give them a listen). Now as for the songs regarding violence, death, irresponsibility, etc. Well, quite frankly, I believe that art with a less-than-pleasant, or depressing taste behind it, is actually the most meaningful. Happy goodie songs can be nice feel-good music, but there's not much meaning. It's kind of like a movie without conflict. Artists like Jay-Z make music about their past life experience, and it's often not pleasant, but if they use that to create a meaningful message of rising up or escaping violence, it becomes grand.
I was thinking more along the lines of Rock music representing teenage angst and rebellion, refusal to conform and alienation. Not well known features of Christianity. I enjoy a blast of "Stille Nacht" every xmas, and this [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4uLZcaRXcU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4uLZcaRXcU[/ame]
