Atheists, Faith Is A Simple Test: To Find Out If You Are Teachable?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, Feb 4, 2023.

  1. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    If it turns out that you are not teachable, then obviously you
    know more than God knows and there will be no place for you
    in God's Heaven.

    Heaven can only have one Supreme Being.

    A Supreme Being that will never consent to become a student
    to be taught wisdom and truths by any of His fallen and very
    sinful human creatures.

    Humans who characteristically do things like democratically electing
    Adolf Hitler to power . . .

    . . . and who follow the Rev Jim Jones to Jonestown and drink the Kool Air
    and near 1000 then lay down to die . . .

    . . . and who follow David Koresh (Branch Dividians) 75 of 84 DIED ...

    and the Heavens Gate Cult - 39 dead by suicide . . .

    . . . then World War 1 the totally unnecessary war that killed
    many millions and all for absolutely NOTHING . . .

    So?

    So why would God want to be taught by the likes of fallen corrupted
    and in many cases totally INSANE humans?

    Why put any faith in nutty insane dangerous human beings?

    Just the opposite the . . .

    Lord Jesus said, "Have faith in God." {Mark 11:22}

    And you will for certain make a Free Will decision on that and you will
    end up saying either:

    (1) Yes I will have faith in God and allow God to teach me what
    He wants me to know.

    or you will end up saying:

    {2) I will not. NO NO NO, I will NOT.
    (and THAT leads to John 3:16's perish)

    Thoughts?

    JAG

    []
     
  2. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Atheists, Faith Is A Simple Test: To Find Out If You Are Gullible?
     
  3. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "So why would God want to be taught by the likes of fallen corrupted
    and in many cases totally INSANE humans?"

    if they found Jesus, they will be in heaven, Jesus died for their sins... right?

    Hitler was born and raised Christian
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
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  4. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

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    Yes. And Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and Clyburn of S.C., etc., all studied at the feel of MLK but all went totally against MLK's teachings. What's your point?
     
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  5. Pommer

    Pommer Newly Registered

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    Nice assertion, you gonna back that up or are we just supposed to accept this because it makes sense to you?
    Seems heretical in classic Christianity, and the “suffering servant” motif that it stole from Zoroastrianism.

    So you never offered proof that there cannot be more than one god.
    Hmmm.
     
  6. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    there are good and bad Christians, a bad Christian is not an Atheist, they are still Theists... that was the point (in fact, they are still Christians... just bad ones)
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
  7. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Hitler was just following the First Commandment. Exodus 34:11-16. He just replaced the names of the victims. God should be pleased.
     
  8. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree there can't be more than one "Supreme Being" by literal definition, but there certainly could be less than one. Your suggestion carries the common circular logic, in that you're asking people to have faith in the existence of a God on the sole basis of your statements about the nature of that God. You also make the error in thinking people can simply choose to have faith or believe in something. If you're not convinced something is true, you can't simply decide to believe it is true anyway.

    Beyond that, you propose a "Supreme Being" could be incapable of teaching or guiding some people, people that God is said to have created himself. The "fall of man" doesn't really account for this either, since that still means God chose to create humans who could fall and, if you also believe in Gods omnipotence, chose to create humans knowing they would fall.

    Ultimately, if this God exists and wants something of any of us, he would be perfectly capable of ensuring that happens, and without removing free will (any more that the possibility of omnipotence at all would anyway).
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    "Teachable" does not mean being susceptible to Christian doctrine.
     
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  10. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Re the bolded red:
    The Sovereign God did exactly that:

    "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
    and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption
    to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure
    and will"
    Ephesians 1:4-5

    "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to
    the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the
    purpose of his wil
    l."
    Ephesians 1:11

    "All that the Father gives me, will come to me."__The Lord Jesus

    (and the ones NOT given to Jesus by the Father will NEVER come to Jesus
    for saving faith -- moreover they will live and die on out GLAD to be in that
    group -- until The Judgment, then there will be "weeping and gnashing of
    teeth"
    Re weeping -many will feel sorry for themselves when they are told they will
    experience John 3:16's perish

    Re gashing of teeth - many others will be filled with hot RAGE when they are
    told they will experience John 3:16's perish - they will in rage and anger scream
    out at God "It's YOUR FAULT we are now in this unfixable condition, YOU FAILED
    TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO US AND WE HATE YOU.



    JAG

    []
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I have a few problems with the notion that this is evidence of there being a god.

    First, I don't see evidence of this notion that humans are holy and blameless. And, that includes every individual, including the Pope, Gandhi, etc. Humans aren't "holy and blameless". Yes, you can ask this god for forgiveness (according to the Bible), but that clearly doesn't preclude continued sin.

    Also, this brings up the issues of how well this particular god can see the future.

    I'm fine with you being a believer. However, I don't believe you answered the question of evidence of the existence of your particular god.
     
  12. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Funny thread, all atheists have faith otherwise they would be agnostic.

    Any atheist that answers "no" to the question 'do you believe in God' is answering based on faith and faith alone!

    So I suppose the answer to the op is all atheist are teachable
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
  13. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Just remember that the fundamental issue is in proving a god exists in the first place. Usually, when atheists question the god described in the bible, they're not literally questioning god, but questioning the assertion that Christians have identified god correctly. Christianity lacks internal coherence. It reminds me of the extremely ironic statement by Homer in describing his gods: “Not at all similar are the race of the immortal gods and the race of men who walk upon the earth”... and then his stories are all about emotionally infantile but physically powerful beings, much like the christian god, and emotionally exactly like petty kings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
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  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You're playing with definitions of faith.
     
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  15. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Illogical definitions. Atheists simply lack belief. It's not the same as saying "there could not possibly be any god." Though sure, some atheists think that, not all. Agnostics are, generally, a type of atheist. All persons that understand the concept of god are either atheist or theist, one could even argue that lacking understanding of the concept is, by definition, atheist.

    It does not require faith to lack a belief. Should I say that you have faith there are no aliens if you do not believe in aliens? Faith is having a positive belief without evidence to back it up. Lacking belief is not a positive belief.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    Thomas Henry Huxley coined the word agnostic in 1869, and said "It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe."

    I tend to see that as applicable to some who are atheists and some who are theists.

    The humans of Earth choose their religious beliefs based on their parents and the society in which they live rather than on evidence.
     
  17. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Yes it's possible to be a theistic agnostic (I said generally atheistic) - I guess people who vaguely believe there is some higher mysterious power but that its nature, or the certainty of its existence, are elusive. But the terms theist and atheist are all-inclusive and mutually exclusive terms. One either believes, or they don't. Certainty doesn't determine the category.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
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  18. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    JAG Writes:

    Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
    Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.

    Start quote.
    "Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the
    determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that
    reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot
    hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and
    reweighs arguments.

    `The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by
    means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .What is the
    basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is the faith-producing work
    of the Holy Spirit . . .

    Now Alvin Plantinga . . .

    Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological
    rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the
    central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted
    wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . .

    Then William Lane Craig says . . .

    I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally,
    the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating
    witness of God's Holy Spirit."
    End quote

    Source:
    Reasonable Faith
    by William Lane Craig
    pages 35, 39, 43

    Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be
    Christendom's top Christian apologists.

    ____________


    JAG Writes:
    Christianity is a FAITH.

    The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
    and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
    the Christian FAITH.

    So?

    So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
    at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
    exercise FAITH in God.

    It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

    These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and
    would no longer be true.

    ■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

    ■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

    ■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
    exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

    ■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

    ■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
    not perish but have eternal life

    ■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
    would no longer be needed or be true.

    Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the
    certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

    He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
    now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
    certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
    certain as is the fact that New York City exists.

    No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

    So?

    So . . .

    Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
    destroyed and wrecked.

    ■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

    ■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

    ■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
    not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
    to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
    John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.

    Best

    JAG

    []
     
  19. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    See my post to Live just above.

    Best

    JAG

    []
     
  20. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Of course. But here's the problem. A benevolent and wise god would not require faith for any kind of reward. Faith is irrational. Irrationality is not something to idolize. Only an insane, emotionally immature king would ask for faith to separate good from bad. That may be the type of person who wrote parts of the bible, but it is not what a benevolent god would look like. The conclusion is that if there is a powerful and benevolent god (which is a big IF), it is not connected to the christian bible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
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  21. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    The 21st century is irrational.
    People that hold your views on faith, usually vote with the left.

    If you are one of them, I note that large numbers of people on your
    side are increasingly embracing. Irrationalism - eg a biological male
    can instantly become a female by merely announcing that he is now
    a she . . .

    . . .in other words 2 + 2 can = 7

    Best

    JAG

    []
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
  22. bobobrazil

    bobobrazil Well-Known Member

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    i have no issue with genuine christians, history show that there were many messiahs within the jewish faith, certain concepts pre-date the jesus sect one in particular "as above, so below' THE NOTION THAT GOD EXISTS ALL AROUND US AND EVEN INSIDE of us, this notion allows me directly connect with the god of the universe through spiritual means and bypass organized religion
     
  23. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Interesting pivot. I think you're just confused on that issue, like most of the right. The question isn't a matter of biological reality, but rather how best to handle people with that psychological problem. It's unfortunate that they feel they are in the wrong body. One could tell them they're wrong all day, and it would do no good, but the purpose of medicine is to mitigate health problems and the standard of care is gender affirmation to minimize harm from their condition. The conservative approach to trans people would be like atheists demanding christians renounce their irrational faith. Their faith may truly be irrational, but such an approach would accomplish nothing and likely backfire.

    It will probably one day be possible to transplant a brain from one body into another (hopefully braindead) body. Now, suppose the original brain was from a male body but the new body was female. This person would truly have a male brain in a female body, so it would be completely rational for them to identify as either gender, though they would appear female by default physically. Only difference with gender dysphoria is it's due to a psychological condition rather than a brain transplant. Either way, compassion for difference is the rational approach.
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Stating something about one's own physiology does NOT mean that something immediate happened.

    Please tell me where you got that idea.

    I really want to know.


    Also, it really isn't a good idea for you to try to make your religious views a partisan political issue. Surely, your religion means more to you that that.
     
  25. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If God had a predestined plan for everything and it can only ever work out as he wants, how would the concept of anyone being "unteachable" fit? If God made me as I am, I obviously must be as God wanted me to be.

    Essentially, you can't have it both ways; If God is all-powerful and created everything with a definitive plan, nothing any of us choose to do (or not do) can be against that plan. If anyone can act against Gods plan or wished, God can't be infallible or have a predestined plan in the first place.
     
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