Atheists, Faith Is A Simple Test: To Find Out If You Are Teachable?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, Feb 4, 2023.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember God holding a seat in any legislature or court.

    I do remember the first amendment separation of church and state.
     
  2. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    As Christians we will always be in this world but not of this world. The culture and legal framework of this word will always be hostile to people of God but we will never falter in our faith. Anyone who doesn't understand this might want to examine the life and ministry of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who refused to compromise his faith to satisfy the demands of his secular government.

    “Choose this day whom you will serve ... but as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:15).
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    In what way do you feel threatened?

    Also, the question isn't your service to your Lord.

    It's your tolerance for others, recognizing that not everyone holds your religious beliefs.
     
  4. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    A HUGE difference between someone who "refused to compromise his faith to satisfy the demands of his secular government" by speaking out against the Holocaust in Nazi Germany and that of current day evangelicals in the US who are "refusing to compromise" by continually trying to curtail the rights of woman and homosexuals.
     
  5. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    Just one example of secular American institutions making our culture hostile to Christians.

    https://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/
    Regular Christians Are No Longer Welcome in American Culture


    This new vigorous secularism has catapulted mockery of Christianity and other forms of religious traditionalism into the mainstream and set a new low for what counts as civil criticism of people’s most-cherished beliefs. In some precincts, the “faith of our fathers” is controversial as never before.

    Some of the faithful have paid unexpected prices for their beliefs lately: the teacher in New Jersey suspended for giving a student a Bible; the football coach in Washington placed on leave for saying a prayer on the field at the end of a game; the fire chief in Atlanta fired for self-publishing a book defending Christian moral teaching; the Marine court-martialed for pasting a Bible verse above her desk; and other examples of the new intolerance. Anti-Christian activists hurl smears like “bigot” and “hater” at Americans who hold traditional beliefs about marriage and accuse anti-abortion Christians of waging a supposed “war on women.”

    Some Christian institutions face pressure to conform to secularist ideology—or else. Flagship evangelical schools like Gordon College in Massachusetts and Kings College in New York have had their accreditation questioned. Some secularists argue that Christian schools don’t deserve accreditation, period. Activists have targeted home-schooling for being a Christian thing; atheist Richard Dawkins and others have even called it tantamount to child abuse. Student groups like InterVarsity have been kicked off campuses. Christian charities, including adoption agencies, Catholic hospitals and crisis pregnancy centers have become objects of attack.

    Yet we must also acknowledge that when some Americans citizens are fearful of expressing their religious views, something new has snaked its way into the village square: an insidious intolerance for religion that has no place in a country founded on religious freedom.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2023
  6. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    No difference at all actually. Bonhoeffer helped found the Confessing Church to resist the Nazi regime's efforts to mandate church teachings change in order to conform to Hitler's twisted beliefs, to become a complicit tool of the regime. Any objective observations today show the same process taking place at a slower pace in America, but happening all the same. Most of us Christians will accept martyrdom before willingly bow to government control
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2023
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    ???
    The government is not allowed to promote a single religion as being true.

    Being a Christian school isn't justification for being accredited. Accreditation comes with meeting academic standards.

    I'm glad to see an interest in ending attacks on pregnancy centers.
     
  8. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    There is no government mandate to have any church change its teachings.

    I challenge you to name even ONE such attempt.
     
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  9. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    More than a few mentioned here:

    https://www.christianpost.com/voices/canadas-crackdown-on-religious-freedom-is-a-wake-up-call.html
    Canada’s crackdown on religious freedom is a wake-up call for Americans

    Recent events in Canada reveal an alarming trend of crackdowns on religious liberty. While not to the same degree of persecution often seen in North Korea or China, it’s nonetheless alarming that brazen violations are happening so close to home.

    Artur Pawlowski, a Canadian pastor, has been jailed multiple times for holding worship services, expressing his religious views and speaking out against government dictates. He’s just one among many in Canada who’ve faced imprisonment, shuttered facilities, steep fines and continued interference from government officials since the start of the pandemic.

    Canada’s recently unanimously passed law, C-4, prevents its citizens from spreading Biblical views on marriage and sexuality. Canadian parents, faith leaders, and citizens who hold traditional views of marriage and sexuality will now face up to 5 years of jail time for providing spiritual guidance to those seeking counseling.”

    Canada’s actions prompted U.S. Sen. Josh Hawley to renew calls to add the country to a special list of religious liberty violators. Last year, U.S. Sen. Josh Hawley sent a letter to the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom urging it to consider adding Canada to its watch list.

    Americans must confront a difficult question: Is a wave of religious hostility, tyranny and intolerance headed to the Land of the Free? The shocking truth is that similar and equally brazen violations are already happening in our nation.

    It’s no longer a dystopian fantasy to think of religious citizens being muzzled and kept from living out their faith. It’s an undeniable reality — and as evidence we can review many of First Liberty’s cases.

    Look at the example of Coach Joe Kennedy, who was fired from his job as a high school football coach. Why? Because the school district claimed it was inappropriate for students and parents to see him take a knee and silently pray for 30 seconds after a football game. A federal appellate court even handed down a troubling ruling stating that any time a public school teacher is on duty and can be seen, everything they do, including a brief, quiet, personal prayer, is government speech.

    Coach Kennedy has now been fighting for years to reclaim his constitutional rights. The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to hear his case and oral argument will be later this year. This could be a landmark case that helps restore religious liberty for millions of public school employees — many whose religious expression has been wrongfully silenced.

    Consider Christian business owners Aaron and Melissa Klein, who were forced to shut down their family bakery, Sweet Cakes by Melissa, after the state of Oregon imposed a crippling $135,000 fine. An Oregon bureaucratic agency punished them because they declined to create a custom cake for a same-sex wedding. Doing so would have coerced them to convey a message contrary to their religious beliefs.










     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Artur Pawlowski was arrested for violating a judge's order for him to not attend illegal gatherings.

    He had full access to all means of communication.

    Suggesting that his religion gave him the right to ignore law is just plain IDIOTIC.

    Those laws applied to all people - the were not there to prevent his message, even though is message is obviously both dangerous and without merit.
     
  11. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    So, you have no response then. I could have made money betting on that.
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    LOL!!!

    I responded to your #109 in my #110.
     
  13. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    So, as long as someone says that what he is saying about something is his religious beliefs, it is good to go?
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That does sound like what mswan is claiming.

    That pastor got arrested for breaking the law.

    Does mswan think I should get immunity if I spout some religion while breaking the law?
     
  15. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    So did Bonhoeffer.
     
  16. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    believers of a God maybe - sad but true, they exist

    http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/loving.html

    "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."
    -Judge Leon M. Bazile (January 6, 1959)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2023
  17. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Now you have to explain how that is relevant today.

    The fact that your Canadian was preaching his gospel is NOT an excuse for breaking the law.
     
  19. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    It's always a problem when government tries to either ban Christianity from the public square altogether, or force our churches into being slavish tools of the government. This is already happening through out the world in places like China, Canada, the UK, and several African countries. It is happening in the US by pressure from government and secular institutions. Most mainline Protestant denominations are already lost causes.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The governments of the US and Canada are not trying to ban Christianity from the public square even in part.

    If protestant denominations can't survive in America, there is literally no hope for them in the first place. America is by far the most accommodating state for protestant Christianity.

    The only real issue I think you are raising is the question of whether your (or my) religion allows me to pick and choose what laws we follow.

    This is a real question. Some years back (less than 10, as I remember) Arizona passed a law that said someone could claim religious exemption from most state laws that don't involve actual crime. Your residential neighbor could have a naked pig roast on their front lawn. All an individual would need to do is to say that the law obstructed their personal free expression of their personal religion!

    Lucky for Arizona, their governor had the presence of mind to veto that bill.
     
  21. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    Here is another example of the increasing effort by government to drive Christian from public space and discourse. Fortunately we are still allowed fight back, but not for long I predict.

    https://thenewamerican.com/pro-life-students-hounded-out-of-smithsonian-score-legal-victory/ Pro-life Students Hounded Out of Smithsonian Score Legal Victory

    A group of students who were harassed and told to leave the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum (NASM) because of their “pro-life” hats achieved a legal victory Monday when the Smithsonian accepted a consent decree stating that visitors may wear clothing with religious and political statements.

    On January 20, a group of students from Our Lady of the Rosary School in Greenville, S.C., who had traveled to Washington, D.C., to attend the National March for Life, also visited the NASM. The students were wearing blue knit caps with the words “Rosary” and “Pro-life” on them.

    According to the lawsuit the students filed against the Smithsonian, they were all told to remove their hats when passing through security, and they complied, thinking it was a standard part of security screening. Later, after they had put their hats back on, they were subjected to verbal harassment by security personnel throughout the museum. Some simply told them to remove their hats. Others, talking to fellow officers within earshot of the students, spoke of them derisively and with profanity. One “approached the students and had a big grin on his face and was rubbing his hands together as he said, ‘Y’all are about to make my day.’” He then told them they needed to remove their hats or else leave the building.




     
  22. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    It’s difficult to imagine that the actions of the security personnel were approved of by the Museum
     
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  23. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    They probably weren't approved by the museum staff. This is just an example of how anti-Christian attitudes have become more accepted among the general public.
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree even a little bit.

    Single events don't show trends.

    Plus, there really isn't enough info in your post to identify the source of the objection.
     
  25. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    Single events are data points, enough data points indicate trends.
     

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