Atheists, Faith Is A Simple Test: To Find Out If You Are Teachable?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, Feb 4, 2023.

  1. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    ``
    "The secret things belong to God." Deut 29:29

    The Bible does not attempt to explain how the Absolute Sovereignty Of God and the Free Will of man can be harmonized.

    So?

    So I don't try to harmonize those two truths.

    The Bible presents BOTH as being true and I fully accept BOTH as true.

    You will end up doing exactly what God has predestined you to do

    and

    You will be held fully accountable for what you decided to do {or not do} with your Free Will.

    How does that work?
    I don't know.

    But I DO know that there will NOT be an external force applied to your Free Will
    to FORCE you to do what you do not really desire to do.

    If you end up being one NOT given to the Lord Jesus by the Father, then your Free Will
    choices will be the means of your ultimate condemnation where you will experience
    John 3:16's perish. "All that the Father gives Me, will come to Me."__Jesus

    Now of course all that up there drives the secular mind bananas -- but the Bible teaches
    that the secular mind CANNOT understand spiritual truths.

    So?

    So you will do what you have been doing probably for decades -- which is trusting in your
    own intellectual mind -- and if you keep on doing that, that road will take you straight
    to John 3:16's perish.

    Free Will.

    You have one.

    JAG

    []

    PS
    A Biblical example of the above principle is this truth:
    The Father predestined from all eternity that His Son the Lord Jesus would be killed on that Cross.
    AND
    God also predestined from all eternity that the people who did it, will be punished most severely.

    ``
     
  2. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand your question.

    If you can rephrase it, I might could give you an answer.

    _________________

    You said in effect that the Christian Faith was irrational.
    I pointed out that the people who are likely in your ideological camp, are also irrational.

    You are on the left, right?
    If so, then you are a member of an ideological group that has fully embraced irrationalism.

    Pot -Kettle

    Best

    JAG

    []

    You do hold that the Christian Faith is irrational, right?

    Opps, I got you confused with another poster --BUT what I said will work for you too.


    ``

    ``
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    If you have a comment about some post, please identify the post.

    Is your religion rational? I don't have to care about that. I'm fine with you being a Christian (or ??).

    I would point out that there is a difference between relying on reason and logic and relying on faith alone.

    Jesus seemed to be a "faith alone" person.
     
  4. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, you get credit for somewhat admitting the glaring logical holes in your beliefs. What doesn't make sense to me is how you can expect everyone else to blindly accept and follow those beliefs despite those holes and your inability to account for them. You're free to follow whatever faith you like (as long as you're not harming anyone else) but if you want to convince other people, you'd need to do much better. The threat of eternal suffering for anyone who doesn't agree to follow your faith certainly isn't going to work in the modern era (and never should have at all).

    Well again, if you think I'm fundamentally incapable of understanding, what do you expect me to do? Just blindly follow your faith (over and above all of the many alternatives)? Again, I don't see how you expect any of this to convince anyone.
     
  5. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    `
    You live in a dream world.

    You live in Fantasy Land and . you embrace Imaginative Assumptions.

    Based on your post up there, you are under the false illusion that
    my goal is to convince you (and others) of the truth of Christianity.

    That is NOT my goal.

    And here is why . . .

    _____________________________________________________________


    "All that the Father gives Me, will come to Me."
    __The Lord Jesus John 6:37

    (if you never come, then you are not one of God's elect)
    _____________________________________________



    "Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe.
    The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
    but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."
    John 10:25-26

    (if you never accept Jesus as your Savior, then you are
    not one of God's elect -- not one of Jesus' sheep)

    __________________________________________________


    "Stop grumbling among yourselves, no man can come to Me unless
    the Father draws him."__The Lord Jesus
    See John 6_43-45

    (you MUST have supernatural help to come to saving faith in Jesus
    as your Savior. How do you get that supernatural help? Simple:
    You pray this prayer sincerely from your heart:


    "Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness.
    I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins
    and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow
    You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."

    ______________________________________________________


    "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed
    us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world"
    Ephesians 1:3-4

    (if you were not chosen before the creation of the world then you can forget
    it -- and just live your short earthly physical life on out to the end and that
    is all you will ever have -- no eternal life for you.)

    ______________________________________________________________



    "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the
    plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of
    his will."

    Ephesians 1"11

    (So how about you? You have any desire to be saved? Or do you just love to
    cling to your god Lord Logic?
    Based on all your posts that I have read, you
    have ZERO interest in trying to live forever.

    So?

    So it appears to me that you are not one of God's elect.

    Yet time will tell.

    It is not to late for you. Do you want to be saved? Or do you just not care?

    ____________________________


    This below is just pure crap to you, right?

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only
    Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have

    eternal life."
    John 3:16



    JAG

    []
     
  6. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the fact that it's not believe scientist in a lab coat can create a new universe - thus be a God

    the question is, what kinda God did we have, one in a lab coat
     
  7. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What was your goal in starting this thread then? Preferably in your own words rather than Biblical quotes you might think are an explanation but aren't necessarily as clear in this context to anyone other than you.

    That is the fundamental problem though. I can't say that "sincerely from my heart" because I honestly don't believe it is true. I could well be wrong, but I can't just make myself believe it regardless.

    You're asking the impossible and, in a way, you've said as much when you talk about some people being unteachable or incapable of understanding "spiritual truths" (notwithstanding the fundamental logical inconsistency you've already admitted you can't resolve).

    Not at all, and I've never said anything like that. I happen not to believe it is true, just as I happen not to believe any number of different philosophical or theological ideas I've heard over the years. I've absolutely no problem if you believe it (again, as long as you're not harming anyone else as a consequence) but I don't see why you would expect me (or anyone else) to blindly accept it on face value, especially after you openly admit the logical flaws you can't answer and suggest that nobody can come to believe it until they somehow choose to believe it first.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2023
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  8. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    `
    Christianity is a faith system and you will come to believe in the Lord Jesus as your Savior
    based on faith -- or you will never come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus.

    You need supernatural help in order to do this -- if you do not get that supernatural help
    from the Holy Spirit you will remain as you are and die in your sins unforgiven.

    The Sovereign God, before He created the world, either predestined you to eternal life,
    or to experience John 3:16's perish. The Bible teaches this clearly - see upthread.

    Looking at this from God's point of view your eternal destiny is already settled and there
    is nothing you can do to change it.

    However . . .

    We humans CANNOT look at it from God's point of view because we are not God.

    So?

    So we MUST look at this from the human point of view and from the human point of
    view your final destiny is an OPEN question.


    And that question is: will you, or will you NOT, choose to humbly ask God to help you to
    believe?

    Yes or no?

    You have Free Will.

    You say you can't believe something like Christianity is true.

    You are exactly right.

    It is utterly impossible for you, in your own strength, to overcome all the intellectual
    obstacles that are keeping you where you now are -- in a state of unbelief. You MUST
    have the supernatural help of the Holy Spirit to come to believe in Jesus as your savior.

    The question is:

    (1) Do you want to get His help?

    or . .

    (2) Do you want to stay like you are?

    One thing is absolutely certain, and here it is:

    You WILL IN FACT make a decision, You WILL CHOOSE
    either (1) or (2) and your Free Will choice will determine your
    eternal destiny --- looking at it from your point of view -- from
    the human point of view.

    Here is how simple it is, simply pray this prayer sincerely:

    "Dear God, help me to believe."

    Then sincerely from the heart pray the sinner's prayer:

    "Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness.
    I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins
    and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow
    You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."

    Best

    JAG

    []

    PS
    "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich,
    yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might
    become rich."
    2 Cor. 8:9




    ``
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2023
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You want to pretend that you found the One True God and that all others are wrong.

    In fact, you proclaim that all others are "unteachable", while YOU are "teachable" - for which I don't see evidence.

    What is clear is that Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Islam, Judaism, and a LONG list of others all have solutions for which you have NO logical refutation.

    This isn't a matter of who can post the largest hunk of some version of the Bible - though you give it a good try.
     
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  10. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Looking at it from the human point of view, the door stands open
    as long as you are breathing.

    The Lord Jesus says:

    "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone
    hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in
    and eat with that person, and they with me."
    __The Lord Jesus
    Rev. 3:20

    Eating together is a metaphor that means you have come
    to the place where you have saving faith in the Lord Jesus
    as your Savior and you have your sins forgiven . . .

    Are you interesting in having your sins forgiven?

    Best

    JAG

    []
     
  11. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Best

    JAG


    []
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That's true for all those faiths I mentioned.

    Not all Christian churches are welcoming of those of whom they do not approve.

    It was good to see the Pope state the importance of welcome and respect.
     
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  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so he likes men.....

    we can all believe whatever we want, all paths lead to the same place....
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2023
  14. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not exactly. I don't believe in the existence of any god or gods, because I've seen nothing that convinces me of their existence, in the context of any of the specific beliefs and claims or as a general concept. I accept that something like that might exist (especially if it is so powerful that it could perfectly hide it's existence from us), but that is no reason to favour any particular faith.

    There are certainly some aspects of Christianity which are valid, both either temporal history or general moral principles, but that isn't the topic here. We're talking about the fundamental principle of believing in a god, not any religious specifics that may result from that (or indeed, be taught and followed despite it).

    That is the fundamental flaw though. I don't believe God exists yet you're saying that to come to believe in God, I have to sincerely ask God for help. To do that sincerely though, I'd have to already believe God exists. It is circular logic.

    If I was going to seek faith in that way, why would I specifically choose yours? Why not ask for help to believe from any of the countless other deities or supernatural powers people have proposed over the years? You're not offering anything special or unique to someone who doesn't believe in any god or gods.

    Maybe that is difficult for you to see from your position of existing faith but you could imagine yourself in a similar position. What if someone from another faith told you you're beliefs are wrong, that to receive the actual truth and save your eternal soul you need to sincerely ask for help from their deity, who could then turn you to the correct path. Would you be able to do so? Would you even want to? Why would you answers to those questions be any different to mine?
     
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  15. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    You operate on your principles and I operate on my principles.

    Right now your position is I will not operate on your principles.

    Huge numbers of the people on your side demand that the verbal exchanges proceed ONLY . . .
    UPON . . . THEIR principles -- ie upon their understanding of what is or is not logical.

    I totally and absolutely 100% reject that and in my world the exchanges proceed
    based upon my principles . . .

    . . . and one of my main principles is that the Bible is the true word of God.

    Christianity is a FAITH.

    It is not a philosophical system based upon empiricism.

    So?

    So the Bible says clearly and boldly that you DO believe in the God that created you.
    You ask, Are you saying that the Bible knows more about me, than I know about me?
    YES . . YES absolutely.

    Read (1) ---(7) below:

    __________________________________________


    Romans 1:18 says that humans "suppress the truth." Atheists are part
    of humanity, so Romans 1:18 applies to them also.

    Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about God is plain to
    them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the
    world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
    been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that
    people are without excuse."

    Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
    {1) There is information that can be known about God.
    {2} This information is plain to men.
    {3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
    {4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
    {5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
    {6} All this in understood from what God created.
    {7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

    Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
    for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
    of the Earth and the Universe.

    ____________________________________________

    So?

    So i will always talk to all humans based upon what the Bible says
    about them, and NOT based upon what they say about themselves.

    Another clear Bible truth:

    The Bible teaches that because all men deliberately suppress the truth
    that they do know, that therefore God gives them over to a depraved mind
    that can no longer function reaching conclusions that are true and good
    and in their best self-interest -- to experience John 3:16's perish is not
    in your best interest.

    The gospel message is:

    You are spiritually dead in sin.

    You are helpless to rescue yourself from the death-road that you are now on.

    You must have the supernatural help of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3) in order to
    ge toff this death-road and come to saving faith in the lord Jesus as your Savior.

    You get this supernatural help by simply asking for it.

    The Bible asks you, in so many worlds, to STOP using your own reasoning powers
    and to come to God humbly with child like faith and it offers you you two distinct
    destinies, and they are:

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
    (1) perish
    or
    (2) eternal life


    JAG

    []
     
  16. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    The Bible asks you, in so many worlds, to STOP using your own reasoning powers
    and to come to God humbly with child like faith and it offers you you two distinct
    destinies, and they are:

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
    (1) perish
    or
    (2) eternal life

    _____________________


    The Bible teaches clearly and boldly that you KNOW you will one day
    have to stand before God and give account of your unbelief --see
    John 3:18 on that. John 3:18 not John 3:16

    So?

    I have nothing to gain from not telling you the truth.

    But you do have something to lose, if I do not tell you the truth.

    So I tell you the truth.

    Best

    JAG

    []
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2023
  17. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    The words "welcome" and "respect" are code words that mean the so-called "Pope" is
    eager to embrace . . .ANYBODY . . that is determined TO KEEP ON SINNING . .

    But . . .

    TRUE Christianity demands this:

    "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray
    and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from
    heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
    2 Chron. 7:14

    You know it too.

    JAG

    []
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not turn away sinners.

    You are trying to mix the issues of your "stairway to heaven" with how Jesus directed Christians to behave on Earth.

    Christianity was NEVER designed to be an exclusive club of self congratulation and pride.
     
  19. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't have a "side", I'm just an individual offering my thoughts as you requested in the OP. Regardless, logic doesn't belong to any one group. You even referenced logic yourself when you admitted that you can't reconcile the concepts of predestination and free will. So, unlike you, I've no issues with considering your "principles". That doesn't mean I must accept your conclusions though.

    As you practice it, sure. The problem remains that you're suggesting that the way people can com to that faith is by simply choosing to believe and act on it, which remains a circular argument. That is why no amount of Biblical quotes (and your personal interpretations of them) is going to be convincing to anyone who doesn't already have faith in them and shares your particular interpretation.

    This all kind of comes back to my question that you never answered; as to what your purpose of posting this actually was, given you deny you're attempting to convince anyone to come to your faith. Because everything you're posted so far appears to be entirely focused on that intent.
     
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  20. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    If God is all-powerful, then one of his powers must be the ability to exist with other all-powerful Gods.

    Regards, stay safe 'n well.
     
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  21. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're simply quoting from a book.

    A study of the Bible against the background, history, culture on which it was written disproves much of the Bible. That a Jewish preacher named Jesus existed is fairly certain but his divinity is not proven anywhere except on paper.
     
  22. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    I suppose the answer to the OP's question is no, atheists are not 'teachable', which presumably means that they are open to a belief in some diety or another, otherwise they wouldn't be atheists. The better question would be, are religionists teachable? Are they able to open their minds to the truth that there is no god?
     
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  23. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Wow. You talk like the existence of a god is a fact.

    Your OP and its title presents as a challenge to atheists, but then you recite rules and consequences relating to god and what your imagined god wants. Do you really think atheists care?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2023
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  24. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    But you know this is all belief and devoid of any provable fact. That why it’s called “faith”.
     
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  25. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    This is always the defense of believers against atheism: “atheism is a faith too!”

    No it isn’t.
    If I deny that you can levitate, I don’t say that on the basis of faith.
    If I deny that Santa Claus brought gifts to my neighbor on Christmas, I don’t say that on the basis of faith.
    If I deny the existence of a god that will judge me, I don’t say that on the basis of faith.

    Evidentiary facts proving I’m wrong about these things do not exist. So I can logically say I do not believe in god without relying on “faith and faith alone”. Rather, a demand for facts is a rejection of faith.
     
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