Avdiivka, Longtime Stronghold for Ukraine, Falls to Russians

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Bill Carson, Feb 17, 2024.

  1. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Well-Known Member

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    Ukie winning? :laughing: NATO puppet zelensky managed to get another 1500 KIA with the order to retreat.....no telling how many prisoners will be taken. Just like Bahkmut, Avdiivka has been liberated.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/17/world/europe/ukraine-avdiivka-withdraw-despair.html
    "Ukraine ordered the complete withdrawal from the decimated city of Avdiivka before dawn on Saturday, surrendering a position that had been a military stronghold for the better part of a decade, in the face of withering Russian assault.

    “Based on the operational situation around Avdiivka, in order to avoid encirclement and preserve the lives and health of servicemen, I decided to withdraw our units from the city and move to defense on more favorable lines,” Gen. Oleksandr Syrsky, Ukraine’s top military commander, said in a statement issued overnight."


    Remember this?

    [​IMG]
    If only his propaganda actually worked :truce:
     
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  2. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ukraine has a naZi problem and Congress is making it worse by failing to aid Ukraine in its time of need.
     
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  3. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well first of all, anyone that celebrates this is a c***

    That aside, if Ukraine was going to negotiate this might be the time.

    I've seen pretty good evidence over the past few weeks that Russia's economy is more robust then we imagined, Putin is popular, in good health and going nowhere. And Russia can continue to turn out equipment and B-grade tanks for years to come - and further continue to bleed conscripts of any age.

    The advantage of negotiating now is that Ukraine might stand a chance of keeping some kind of eastern border. But if they wait until the west pulls the plug then they could lose the lot.
     
  4. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sad that the fate of this war is being fought within the US Congress.
     
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  5. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's not that robust, actually, and Putler can ill afford to recruit many more able-bodied young men to die in Ukraine. His central bank is trying and in part failing to stave off inflation with massive rate hikes, his oil and gas production are being hit by drone attacks, and he is already running short of workers. War fatigue is also growing in ruZZia. So no, now is not a time for Ukraine to be forced into negotiations with an unfaithful negotiator and fascist aggressor teetering on economic and social disaster. Now is the time for Ukraine to remain strong and continue to build its forces and add to its capabilities.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
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  6. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Update from Ukraine | Ruzzia Took Avdiivka but Lost The Air Control | 3 Jets downed, 666 tanks gone
     
  7. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    There have been reputable articles not necessarily stating that everything's a-ok in Russia but that it's not as bad as we might think.

    I think you missed my point. If the US and Allies are going to continue to support Ukraine at the level needed that's great. But if the US is going to pull the plug before Russia's impending collapse then all might be lost.

    However, if a treaty is enacted the borders are redrawn and Ukraine is shored up then it would just be a question of maintaining that status quo, which is far less costly than a war, and might be acceptable for even the most Ukraine-antagonistic Congress and President.

    I have no idea if Putin would simply break this treaty again. I'm simply looking at alternatives to complete loss.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
  8. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    .. Already answered
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
  9. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    I suppose it would then depend on what others can provide. Europe is upping artillery shell production and F-16s are on their way, and they are providing other aid as well. It's not as much as the US is capable of providing, but it is still a lot and should prevent "all" being lost any time soon.

    But there is no point negotiating a treaty with Putin. As we've already seen, he does not honor treaties with Ukraine or concerning Ukraine. He violated the Minsk agreement and eventually launched this latest invasion, and he and the rest of Russia's leadership want Ukraine under Kremlin control. They deny Ukrainian statehood, deny their right to exist independently of Russia on historical grounds. Any treaty would be a ruse, a chance to pause and rebuild and prepare for the next invasion.
     
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  10. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    Counterpoint.....Bill.

    https:// www.uawire.org/ukrainian-military-ukrainian-forces-retain-control-over-large-part-of-avdiivka



    Those 1500 KIA claimed was where those 3 jets were supposedly involved to try to eliminate UAF.....they got shot down.
     
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  11. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    You could be right... In any case De-Nazification (one of Putins treaty stipulations) is code word for ass-kissing Russian subjugation. I imagine far too many Ukrainians would rather die on their feet and go back to living on their knees.

    Let's hope they get that support!
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
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  12. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    You've got it completely backwards. It was Ukraine and its partners that had no intention of honoring the Minsk agreements. Had they done so, we wouldn't be where we are now and all those deaths and all that destruction and all that loss of territory wouldn't have happened.

    From December, 2022:

    In an interview with the German newspaper Die Zeit last week, former German chancellor Angela Merkel revealed the West's real intention behind its negotiation with Russia and Ukraine to promote a ceasefire in 2014. She admitted the Minsk agreements were an "attempt to give Ukraine time" and that Kiev had used it "to become stronger."

    https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202212/1281708.shtml
     
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  13. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    "Global times" ....opinion piece from December 2022.

    Sounds "real credible"......you ....guys....are something else.....LOL.
     
  14. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    LOL ...... it was all over the news. Guess you didn't get the memo.

    In an interview published in Germany's Zeit magazine on Wednesday, former German chancellor Angela Merkel said that the Minsk agreements had been an attempt to "give Ukraine time" to build up its defences.

    Maybe you'll like this one better. Or not. Frankly I don't care.

    From December 9, 2022:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/putin...eal-one-day-partners-cheated-past-2022-12-09/
     
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  15. Eadora

    Eadora Well-Known Member

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    Yah Democracy is such a ---------- [​IMG]
    especially when it does not do what YOUR
    Me Myself or I wants it to do

    Thanx for the shining a Light on EXACTLY
    ......... where YOU people are coming from

    It would be funny and laughable but for the Catastrophic Horrors
    ................ that result from the gutter puddle depth of such thought

    & we are aware of who the NaZis are - They are like the people who
    shine a
    Light and let us know EXACTLY where they are coming from

    [​IMG]

    The same SWINE who just got their Ass kicked in & out of Avdiivka
     
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  16. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Well-Known Member

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    Enough of the fake news. First off, there were 2 Minsk Agreements. ukraine violated them both. France and Germany were guarantors. They violated them. The US violated them by placing military in the country.

    ukraine used the farcical Minsk Agreements to stall so they could build up their military to attack Donetsk and Luhansk.
     
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  17. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    Putin may not be the hold up. Zelensky has vowed not to cede an inch of Ukranian soil to Russia.
     
  18. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    "I've been cheated".....

    Yaddah yaddah.....Cri-me-a river.

    Sour grapes from a vanquished empire.....and a butthurt dwarf that can't seem to let go, and lives in the past.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
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  19. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Well-Known Member

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    yeah well, zelensky isn't so bright....he also signed an order forbidding any peace negotiations....

    But he did legalize marijuana.

    Priorities....priorities.

    Next, cocaine :laughing:
     
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  20. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    I am sure there are already contingencies in place for him to flee as the situation continues to degrade.
     
  21. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    Long live Russia, the public in the UK do not support zelenski.
     
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  22. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine’s Zelensky admits he sabotaged Minsk peace deal with Russia, West blocked negotiations
    Ukraine’s leader Volodymyr Zelensky admitted to the newspaper Der Spiegel that he refused to implement the 2015 Minsk II peace deal with Russia. Germany and France said Kiev used the agreement to “buy time” to prepare for war.

    2023-02-10

    Ukraine’s leader Volodymyr Zelensky admitted to a major German newspaper that he refused to implement the Minsk peace deal with Russia.

    The Minsk accords were two agreements, negotiated in Belarus; signed by Ukraine, Russia, and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE); and overseen by Germany and France, in the so-called Normandy Format.

    The accords aimed to stop the conflict in Ukraine that broke out following a violent US-backed coup in 2014, which set off a civil war between Kiev’s pro-Western, post-coup government and pro-Russian separatists in the east.

    The first deal, known as Minsk I, was reached in 2014, but failed. This led to Minsk II in 2015. This agreement was ostensibly more stable, but Ukraine’s previous President Petro Poroshenko never truly implemented it.

    When Zelensky ran for president, he had differentiated himself from Poroshenko by pledging to “reboot” peace negotiations with the Russian-speaking separatists in the east and “continue in the direction of the Minsk talks and head towards concluding a ceasefire”.

    But soon after coming to power in 2019, Zelensky did a 180.

    In an interview with the German daily Der Spiegel, published on February 9, 2023, Zelensky made it clear that he intentionally chose to sabotage Minsk.

    The Ukrainian leader complained that the Minsk agreements were an unacceptable “concession”.

    Zelensky recalled telling French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel that “we cannot implement it”.

    “Procrastination is perfectly fine in diplomacy”, Zelensky said, explaining that he only “jumped on the train” and pretended to support Minsk in order to negotiate a prisoner swap with Russia – and give his country more time to prepare for war.

    Merkel herself confirmed this in December 2022, in an interview with the newspaper Die Zeit.

    The former German leader stated that the “2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to buy time for Ukraine. Ukraine used this time to become stronger”.

    Former French President François Hollande later commented, “Angela Merkel is right on this point”.

    Hollande added: “Since 2014, Ukraine has strengthened its military posture. Indeed, the Ukrainian army was completely different from that of 2014. It was better trained and equipped. It is the merit of the Minsk agreements to have given the Ukrainian army this opportunity”.

    https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/02/10/ukraine-zelensky-minsk-peace-russia/
     
  23. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Well-Known Member

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    I hope not. He deserves to go down with the ship.
     
  24. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    The naZis are the swine who have invaded a neighboring country to steal its territory and erase its native people, language and culture. Not a small group of guys holding up flags in a photograph.
     
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  25. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah D, it's probably the same small group renaming streets after WW2 nazis, building statues of nazis, making national holidays for nazis......

    nobody is buying what you're selling

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
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