BMW Ends ICE Production in Germany! Mercedes?

Discussion in 'Science' started by WillReadmore, Nov 17, 2023.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    "BMW has concluded the production of internal combustion engines (ICE) at its Munich, Germany factory, signifying the end of an era. The company intends to reconfigure the facility to manufacture a lineup of electric vehicles."

    They are not ending all ICE production, but this is a strong signal that the direction they have stated is being acted on.

    https://www.carscoops.com/2023/11/b...th-last-v8-but-wont-abandon-combustion-power/

    Electric Boogaloo: Mercedes to Stop Developing New ICE Platforms Come 2025
    The automaker hasn't said when it's abandoning internal combustion entirely, but it seems the writing's on the wall.

    https://www.motortrend.com/news/mercedes-benz-ev-2025/
     
  2. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    It seems that just about everyone else is having second thoughts on the whole mandated EV cluster, here in the US anyway. Perhaps they're slowing down to see if June destroys the EV mandate.

    Either way, EVs are rapidly losing their luster as early adopters are petering out and the market's starting its inevitable collapse. Now it's just dancing with the devil and hoping for a break in the government idiocy.

    We'll see in a few months.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  3. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Time for Germany to fire up more coal plants to generate the needed electricity.
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    EV sales in the US are projected to finish this year with 33% growth over last year. One challenge for EVs is that in America, only Tesla is turning a profit and Ford and others are slowing their investments, as they lose far to much for each EV sold.

    Tesla has been upgrading its manufacturing for the new versions out now and coming next year and has been increasing battery manufacturing, including moving to new battery types.

    I don't know where you are seeing sluggishness outside of ICE manufacturers who haven't been successful in the EV marketplace so far.

    World wide, EV demand is growing faster than in the USA. In China, there are 92 corporations that are manufacturing EVs!! ICE faces huge headwinds there, starting with government push for clean air. 30% of the world's cars are purchased in China. ICE sales are shrinking rapidly, pushing out western and Japanese ICE entries. BYD is challenging Tesla there, but there will have to be a huge shakeout, as surely 92 companies making cars won't work.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, their electricity is about 42% fossil fuel - coal and gas.

    The rest is clean:

    Wind plus solar is about 37%.

    Hydro + biomass + nuclear is about 18.3%.

    Why add more fossil fuel generation?

    I can understand their move away from nuclear, as that's the most expensive electricity, thus clean, but possibly an economic problem.
     
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  6. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nuclear is the cheapest and cleanest option of all. About 1/3rd cheaper than natural gas.

    https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2022/nuclear-wasted-why-the-cost-of-nuclear-energy-is-misunderstood

    As for your statistics, that's the current fossil fuel usage.

    If they kill all ICE engines, then all that energy normally provided by gasoline/diesel will need to be generated by power plants. That means a huge increase in fossil fuel plants.

    That also doesn't even begin to cover how much the electric grid will need to be beefed up.

    Gradual implementation of passenger car EV's might be tenable, but this all at once nonsense is going to be a disaster.
     
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  7. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Tesla's only turning a profit because all they sell are EVs and normal manufacturer's buy EPA emissions credits from them as the EPA pushes to destroy ICE. It's a rigged game that if not overturned, will crush the automotive industry. Despite their temporary government mandated market success, I doubt Tesla will survive any better than it's competition come 2030 and beyond.

    China's irrelevant. The US is still nominally a free country and there's a wide understanding out here in the boonies that EVs suck compared to ICE.

    My money's on a rising ICE refurbishment industry. Since the 2035 ban is only on new vehicles, if you've got the certification plates from a wrecked ICE vehicle, you can always rebuild it and still be legal. Nobody in the Federal government has figured out how to ban existing vehicles. California tried proposing that back in the 90's and people with cherry '58 T-birds promised that they could have their cars if they want to come and get them over their dead bodies. That, and the fact that those cars predated emissions regs pretty much killed the whole idea.

    But the ugly truth is the government is making sales of vehicles people want illegal while trying to push vehicles that people won't pay for. That's kind of an unprecedented market inversion that can only end disastrously.

    But you can always say you heard it here first.
     
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  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with your cite. For example, it adds the cost of land for wind energy. But, the Midwest (and other places) are rich in both wind and agriculture - which are quite compatible, especially considering it offers farming a constant source of income, not subject to the success of farming or how commodities markets set prices.

    As for cost of nuclear power, one can look at the new reactors being built in UK, especially ones being built on existing nuclear sites, since that avoids the costs related to site selection, purchase and licensing as well as waste materials handling.

    Tesla is moving toward being in the energy business. They have EV charging facilities that have industrial sized battery installations. They buy grid energy during times of low use - at cheaper rates. Then they charge cars at the going rate at the time of charging. (Grid operators like this, as it evens the load.)

    Also, they are using large battery installations to solve the problems of utilities needing to buy spot power during short term spikes. This power is usually produced by gas fired plants, But, the periods of the spikes are such that they can be handled by these industrial scale batteries. Today, this type of electricity can cost 50X the going rate. Tesla implemented this solution in Western Australia and saved them millions of dollars per year. Now, they are doing that here - as are other companies.

    Tesla Energy made about $4B revenue in 2022. Besides grid management, they have solutions for homes to be off the grid - thus saving the power that homes use. Encouraging people to not use the grid (or to sell electricity back to the grid) means a reduction in what power plants must generate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2023
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  9. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    If so many people didn't feel the need to drive giant v8s that don't actually need them for work it would probably be a lot more gas to go around.

    I would like to buy one of those little four-cylinder Isuzu flatbed trucks that they sell in Asia. They're tiny little trucks that two grown men sitting in the cab would be close to shoulder to shoulder and they probably don't weigh any more than about 1800 lb if even that much.

    But of course they don't sell those on the American market because we all have to have 5,000 lb trucks that suck down a quart of gasoline to turn the motor over.

    If government was really serious they would let things like that Isuzu truck be sold here.

    But no everything has to be big and expensive and difficult to fix.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Amen.

    A friend of mine bought a foreign pickup like that used. It can hardly be called a pick-up, as it looks a little like a small VW microbus of old, but with the back half turned into a PU bed. We nearly touch shoulders in it. It's right side drive! I don't know how it got into the US!

    It is definitely cute and great for his needs, which are almost always single person. He has another rig he uses for freeway travel or family type use.
     
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  11. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    The American motorcycle market is the same way. In Asia, small displacement bikes are the norm. But here everyone thinks they need a 600cc or larger.

    I bought my 230 CC a couple of years ago and I weigh right about 230 lb and all of my riding buddies said you're going to get tired of that and want something bigger. I'm not tired of it a bit, it suits my needs and 5 gallons of gas last me one month.

    Until we actually work on curbing our excessive appetite for gasoline, I think electronic vehicles are more of a solution in search of a problem.

    We have the answer in front of us for the average person, use a smaller lighter vehicle.

    I can see if you need a big dually diesel because you regularly tow heavy equipment but it makes no sense to own and operate something like that if you don't actually use it for its intended purpose.

    I'd love to have a little four-cylinder truck but I can't find one
     
  12. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    And of course why would a manufacturer want to sell you a brand new 4-cylinder truck that's easy to maintain and repair for $15,000 when they can sell you a big ass V8 that's all computerized and very difficult for the average owner to do any self maintenance, for $60,000?

    The answer to that is good old-fashioned greed.
     
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  13. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Looked to buy a 3-5 year old Mercedes or BMW ICE. They are so expensive. The used cars are selling at nearly the price when newly bought! Is this a consequence of the push for electric/
     
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  14. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Correction. They aren't sold here because they can't meet government safety standards (FMVSS).

    Although you can buy all sorts of little off-road machines at Home Depot or Lowes.
     
  15. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Once upon a time I did see one on a public road here with a tag on it.

    I forget what state it was in but I watched a video once of a guy going to the DMV and getting his side by side street legal.

    I recently learned that here in Florida you can operate a four-wheeler on public roads as long as it is a dirt road with a 30 mph or less speed limit but I do think it has to be registered.... And of course unless you live out in the middle of the county with plenty of dirt roads it's not going to do you a whole lot of good.
     
  16. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. My wife drove stuff like that during her short stint at Bagram and I occasionally see them around here. In Virginia we have "Farm Use" plates which are unofficial tags that say Farm Use. It allows you to drive an old decrepit pickup on road without the mandatory state safety inspections in a limited distance from your home. My wife asked our neighbor the State Trooper if she could drive one of the little Home Depot buggies around the neighborhood and he said definitely not (not that he'd care but the local police might, particularly if any neighbors complained). But definitely interesting.
     
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  17. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    I hit an interesting factoid the other day (watch the BBC series QI - humour for nerds). EVs don’t need catalytic converters so there will be less need for the worlds most expensive metal - rhodium
    https://newagemetals.com/what-is-rhodium-and-why-is-it-so-valuable/
     
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  18. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    What’s wrong with right hand drive :p.
    upload_2023-11-25_13-24-18.jpeg

    Road between Uluṟu and Erldunda (Lasseters highway)
     
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  19. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    We shall see.
    The EV bubble popped: VW orders are down 50%, Ford loses $38,000 on each car, Toyota chief, says “people are waking up”
    [​IMG]

    By Jo Nova

    Last week the EV bubble popped
    It’s been a crushing week for the EV industry as the bad news that has been brewing for months was laid bare in the quarterly reports. Across the industry, corporate CEO’s are all admitting that demand is unexpectedly slow, orders are down, and suddenly projects are being delayed “indefinitely”.

    Volkswagen admitted orders are down a shocking 50% and they are sacking 2,000 jobs in the software division. Ford posted an operating loss of $1.3 billion for the quarter — meaning they are losing $36,000 for every EV they sell. They face a ghastly full year loss of $4.5b, so not surprisingly, they are delaying battery plants, and plans to expand production. All up they are now holding off on $12 billion in investments.

    The head of Mercedes-Benz described the market as “a pretty brutal space”. Harald Wilhelm hinted that some manufacturers won’t survive: “I can hardly imagine the current status quo is fully sustainable for everybody,” he said.

    Panasonic has slowed EV battery production was reduced by 60% in Japan compared to the same quarter last year. While its US plants were OK, profit forecasts of the whole energy division were down 15% and depended on US subsidies.

    News of cars kidnapping drivers, and airport car infernos have added to range anxiety and crushing interest rates to squeeze the EV bubble til it popped. . . .
     
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  20. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's tough times for EV's.
    EV Sales Slump: Why Americans Are Not Buying Electric Cars
    upload_2023-11-24_23-43-8.png
    money.com
    https://money.com › Personal Finance › News


    Nov 1, 2023 — EV sales growth is slowing down. Here's why drivers are not buying electric cars, even with $7500 tax credits and price cuts.


    Here's why people aren't buying EVs in spite of price cuts ...
    upload_2023-11-24_23-43-8.png
    USA Today
    https://www.usatoday.com › money › 2023/11/14 › e...


    Nov 14, 2023 — Used EVs saw similar declines, with EVs 3 years old or less shedding 29.5%, car buying platform Edmunds said. Even with those lower prices the ...
     
  21. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Oh! Is Jo still getting her pocket money from big oil?
    For every site groaning about “EV sales are not what was expected” there are two reports on how strong the EV sales have been
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/eur...up-146-ev-sales-jump-more-than-36-2023-11-21/
     
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  22. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    There is a great deal of manpower involved in the manufacture of ICE and it is global. Try phasing out big V8's and not much of an impact will be felt but phasing out 4-bangers will probably mean significant layoffs.

    If the Auto beancounters had their way everything would be automated, including the coffee and cake lady, so they like the concept of EV's.

    Losing manufacturing jobs will be felt the most in nations with the most capacity, the Germans have seen this coming and want to be ahead of the curve. The rest will follow because the Auto Execs always follow the money.
     
  23. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Funny how those anti-EV sites are ALL singing from the SAME negative songbook, almost as if they are PAID to produce their pablum.
     
  24. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  25. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    The data are the data.
     
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