Breakthrough promises $1.50 per gallon synthetic gasoline with no carbon emissions

Those of us in the manufacturing world are very familiar with gas powered vehicles, ie, propane fueled forklifts.

The three largest hurdles for natural gas vehicles are that the fuel tanks need to be much thicker (read heavier) than a tank for gasoline, there is not a nationwide natural gas distribution system to refuel the vehicles (most urban areas are ok) and finally, self service fueling stations would soon be viewed as America's Funniest Videos by Quentin Tarrentino.

 

I first read about the water powered cars in the early 60's. If memory serves right, the initial proposal used a pill that you dissolved in the water and Big Oil was suppressing the invention. Every two or three years another permutation pops up, and surely a lot of people send money to get in on the ground floor.

 

If there was ever such a thing, this would signal the last time I ever go within 1/4 mile of one of these CNG stations!!

Even if there was trained personnel, I still wouldn't visit a station that was servicing 8-12 vehicles simultaneously...

 

Why not?

They could have the tanks already filled and all that would have to be done in to disconnect one tank and quick connect another.

You could even buy it at local retail stores like you do propane today. And most areas have a natural gas dealer close by already.

Propane tanks are not that heavy and I see no reason why natural gas would be any different.

 

It is obvious that you have never replaced a propane tank on a fork lift.

Do not confuse the bottle you use on you gas grill with a fuel tank. The home bottle holds 4.7 gallons of propane (20 lbs) and weighs about 40 lbs filled. A fork lift gas bottle holds 7.9 gallons (33 lbs) and weighs about 70 lbs full.

Note that is only 7.9 gallons, the typical auto gas tank is about 12 gallons, so going from about 12 to about 8 gallons would be a driving range reduction of 33%.

One difference is that the fuel tanks use liquid propane, the same propane at a higher pressure, basically because you can get more propane in the same volume of space.

The liquid propane has some hazards. Probably every driver has misthreaded the connection and gotten a freeze burn from the leaking propane, I know that I have.

Have you ever forgotten to shut off the valve on your grill tank when you were finished grilling and returned the next day to find the tank empty. The gaseous fuels are much less forgiving regarding leaks than liquid gasoline.

Natural gas would be identical.

 

I see too many people (idoits) today putting gasoline into their cars while they are smoking! I know gasoline and CNG have different flammability characteristics but both are highly flammable under the right conditions. If static charges can start a gasoline fire, until someone says no, I will assume a static charge can ignite CNG. I'm sure the valve system and filling systems are well designed, but IMO the best designed thing can be destroyed by an idiot. Let's put it another way; until I see some solid safety history, regarding the masses being involved, I will not hang out at CNG filling centers.

Here's a quotation regarding tank design;

"Because compressed natural gas (CNG) fuel systems operate at pressures in excess of 3000 PSI, the fuel tank and associated plumbing have to be incredibly rugged and strong enough to contain that pressure. The on-board tanks are made of steel up to one half-inch thick and often wrapped in protective reinforced fiberglass sheathing. Plus, newer tanks are constructed of aluminum, polymers and composites that are stronger than steel."

I don't know, but have heard, that CNG fuel systems are installed in parallel with gasoline fuel systems, basically meaning the car operates on CNG until that runs out then switches over to gasoline...someone on this forum will know if this is true...

 

The only natural gas vehicles I have ever seen are two city buses and some trucks belonging to the local gas utility (go figure!). None of these have a gasoline backup, of course none have to travel too far from home base/refueling point.

I think there might some technical problems with the dual fuel system due to the BTU differences/gal that would be more complicated than merely requiring the flick of a switch. Not sure on that point.

 

This dual fuel system might only be required on conversion vehicles?? I'm guessing someone converting gas to CNG on a car is not legally able to mess with the gasoline fuel systems on someone else's car. Also I don't know the CNG capacity in a typical car so if it's fairly small, meaning the total miles are fairly low, and CNG filling stations are few in between, it actually makes some sense to be able to burn gasoline if needed.

The thing about any of these alternative fuel sources for personal vehicles is that we don't need to solve 100% of our gasoline problem...25% or 50% reduction in oil/gas would be huge!! So it makes some sense to have a gasoline motor in electrics, or hybrids, or CNG, etc. as the secondary fuel system...

 

I just wonder what you would have to say if we run LNG and were switching to gasoline.

I have run a forklift in a factory and never had a problem switching tanks...unless you count replacing an empty tank with an empty tank.

LNG is the future...I said it here and if I am wrong you can quote me later.

 

And Australia has mega reserves of LNG - but nothing is infinite

 

Plus I hear Martians are cutthroat negotiators.

 

We have a lot of it in the U.S. also.

And if we had to buy it Natural gas I would much rather buy it from Australia than the Mid-East.

Yall may not like us very much but at least you aren't trying to kill us.

 

Actually, the thing stopping the spread of CNG/LNG in the US is the EPA. Because there are so many regulations involved in certifying the conversion kits, they cost many times more then they do in other countries. Currently in the US, the cost to do a conversion is in the range of $16,000. And because of the requirements of the tank you generally loose your trunk in the conversion.

And the same goes for home filling stations. It is possible to do this, but the system takes hours to fill the average fuel tank because the gas in your home is not compressed. So you need to install a compression system in addition to the filling system. But because of Federal laws prohibiting the use of fueling systems in homes, most of us can't use one of the advanced ones, leading to refuel times of 20+ hours instead of 10 minutes. And a lot of areas either require extensive permits and inspections for individuals to own one, if they allow it at all. So even if you are allowed to have a home filling station, you have to have it a set distance from your house, and meet all of the requirements of any other gas station.

And as somebody claimed earlier, you can't just remove one tank and insert another. These have to be specially secured and protected, so dropping in a tank is not like replacing the one on your outdoor grill.

The biggest problem with most of the alternate fuel solutions that use other fossil fuels is the Government. CNG/LNG/Propane have such strong regulations in their use that trying to decipher them is a nightmare. In many countries, these conversions only cost a few thousand dollars. But in the US everything must be checked and certified and redesigned to meet such tangled requirements that many companies do not see it as worthwhile to sell them here.

To give an idea, the Clean Air Act makes it illegal to convert a vehicle from one fuel system to the use of another fuel system. This is one of the reasons why such conversions are largely restricted to new vehicles (which of course are exempt, since they have not technically been in operation yet). So while it is very possible to convert your 2000 Chevy Silverado to CNG, it is against the law to do so.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/maintenance/should-you-convert-your-car-to-natural-gas

I did a lot of research into alternate fuels several years ago. CNG was one that I had a lot of interest in, but the insane Federal requirements made me cross it off my list. To me if the President was really serious about "Green Energy", he would do something to try and cut out all these stupid requirements so more of us could convert to CNG. And trust me, if it became possible for people to convert their current vehicles to CNG for $2-4,000, you would probably see a lot of people seriously consider that. However, it would also kill a lot of the need for the money the Government has sunk into the black hole of Solar and other daydream programs. So of course, it is not in their interest at all.

And trust me, if this became popular, you would no longer see natural gas as cheap as it is now. The loss of gasoline taxes would cause governments (city, county, state and Federal) to start puttting huge taxes on that like it does on gasoline today.

 

LNG is when we can harvest methane hydrates - continuously renewing.

 

Propane can be liquified at room temperature and at reasonable pressures - natural gas can not. LNG is very cold, and kept that way by boiling off some of the methane - a green house gas 30X that of CO2, which degrades into CO2.

Methane provides less energy than gasoline, part of that can be recovered as methane has an octane of 140, so can support much higher compression ratio's (extracting more of the available energy) than gasoline. A small engine can also run at very high boost (turbo or supercharger), providing power when needed, and running more efficiently off boost (most of the time). The resulting engine could never run on gasoline.

 

If it's actually illegal to do gas-CNG conversions, then the $16K cost is kind of a moot point. I only know of one person who converted a truck maybe 20 years ago and they have never had any problems.

It has always been difficult for me to fathom CNG home stations or public filling stations; we're just such idiots and the fires/injuries/deaths, etc. will become a common occurrence. I suspect this is the primary reason why there is so much regulation...and liability!

Change is difficult to implement in the best environments but almost impossible when the cost of implementation is too high for the masses to consider. You are certainly correct that higher demand of CNG/LNG will inflate the consumer pricing, and, all governments are on the outlook for anything new to tax.

The collective we in this world have created machinery that is dependent on fossil fuels, and this machinery is woven into the fabric of our lives, from lawnmowers to weed-eaters to farm tractors to personal vehicles to trucks and trains and sea vessels to aircraft to everything military...literally billions of machines in every square inch of this Earth! IMO the ONLY way to effectively reduce our fossil fuel consumption is to create a non-fossil fuel that can operate in the billions of existing machines without requiring any costs to convert. If there is a cost, a huge percentage of the masses will refuse. If there is a larger cost to change machinery the conversion could take centuries; we simply cannot afford or justify the costs for this scale of implementation. So...because of costs, and the time to implement new technology machines, we will run out of fossil fuels long before implementation is achieved. This brings me full circle to the concept that we must find another fuel that will work in existing equipment.

If I was the federal government, I would offer a $500 million award to the first person/company who can create a non-fossil fuel, that will operate in existing machinery, and can be economically produced to satisfy demands...

 

If you can't afford gas for your car - FLY!

Signed,

A Republican

 

It is not technically "illegal" to convert to CNG.

What is illegal is to convert the fuel system of a vehicle from one fuel to another. If your car is in operation and it was built to work with CNG, it is fine to use CNG. If it was designed to use gasoline, then you have to use gasoline. The loophole is that a new vehicle is not considered to be in operation, so it is then legal to do the conversion. And there are a lot of companies out there that do conversions. But they are all for new vehicles only.

So you can buy a new 2011 Silverado, and convert it to CNG. But if you want to convert your 2008 Silverado, you are out of luck. Because it is already operating as a gasoline vehicle, and converting it would be in violation of the Clean Air Act.

 

Seems stupid that government can dictate what propels someone's vehicle?? I agree that government can set standards, like speed ranges, and noise, and emissions, and if any car propelled by anything complies with these requirements, then government should have no problem.

Regarding the Clean Air Act, again if the Act provides data for emissions, and if CNG or any other fuel is within those requirements, then why should government have a problem?

I wonder if I can convert the 2008 Silverado into a steam engine?

 

You have to realize that a lot of these regulations go back decades. And when they were created, they were not considering a change to CNG, Propane, Hydrogen, or anything else.

Back until the early 1990's, diesel was cheaper then gasoline. So a lot of people would convert their vehicles to diesel for the lower fuel cost. But since diesel is often a "dirtier" fuel, it emitted more polutants. So these regulations were put into place decades ago to prevent this from happening. The prohibition is not in converting an existing vehicle to operate off of CNG, but to change the fuel system of any vehicle to another fuel system.

This is a typical government response to an issue. Rather then create a giant government beaurocracy to look into and compare things like emissions and the like (especially back in 1969 when this law was first created), it was easier to just ban it all.This is why I say the President really does not care about alternate fuel. Instead of making it possible for everybody to convert inexpensively to another fuel source, he tries to force us to buy things like the Volt, which is so expensive that almost nobody can afford them.

So you can't change the fuel system of any 2008 vehicle to anything else. Propane, CNG, steam, diesel, or anything else. Period. But you can change the fuel system of a new vehicle to anything you want.

 

If CNG/LNG are truly viable options to oil/gasoline, Obama can mandate that by the end of 2012 that all car manufacturers and/or dealerships, regarding 'new' vehicles, must provide an option to buyers for CNG/LNG fuel systems. This option should be the bi-fuel option in which the cars will operate on both CNG and gasoline...this removes the stigma of giving up gasoline.

Immediately following this policy change, Obama can then change your law to allow these bi-fuel conversions on ALL used cars.

I was just reading how the government defines 'alternative fuels'. "methanol, ethanol, and other alcohols; blends of 85% or more of alcohol with gasoline (E85); natural gas and liquid fuels domestically produced from natural gas; propane; hydrogen; electricity; biodiesel (B100); coal-derived liquid fuels; fuels, other than alcohol, derived from biological materials; and P-Series fuels, which were added to the definition in 1999"

But...after all of this, none of these options are going to have much meaning until the masses...the PEOPLE...become involved. And I suspect anything that costs consumers more than $50 or some very small number, will prevent the masses from being involved. As long as gasoline is flowing from the pumps, and the price/gallon is somewhat tolerable, the masses won't be proactive until there is a crisis...

 

Well, you can already do this yourself. It is not hard to find companies that to CNG conversions. And I am sure if you go to a dealer and want to buy a new car and convert it to CNG, they can set you up with a company that will do just that.

However, that still leaves the issue with fueling the vehicle. Because then you have regulations in place that make it almost impossible (if not impossible) to refuel the vehicle yourself. Which means that you have to buy it in the community.

http://www.cngprices.com/station_map.php

Now in my area, CNG from a commercial station is still about half of the price of gasoline. But unless you live close to where such a filling station exists, you are largely out of luck. And forget about this for long distance travel. Sure, you can go from San Francisco to Los Angeles and refill on the way with commercial CNG. If you are going East on I-10 and if your car gets good enough gas mileage, you might even make it to Phoenix from LA. Then you can make it to Tuscon. But good luck going further East. Your next fuel is a detour to Austin. And if you are going North on I-5, shortly outside of Sacramento you have to make it to Medford on a single tank. And there is no way you are making it from Medford to Seattle on one tank of gas.

But I believe that the biggest thing to make individuals start to use "alternate fuels" is to get rid of many of the crappy regulations that prevent this. Put into place exemptions for converting older cars to CNG and LPG, and you will likely see a lot of old gas burners converted. Allow home compression without the nightmare of Federal and Local regulations, and you will then see it grow in even more remote areas where CNG is not available. I can imagine if it was allowed farmers converting their old work trucks to CNG and having home filling stations. And I can see large numbers of commuters adopting this. At one time I had a daily commute of around 250 miles, when gas was in the $1.50-2.00 range. Being able to run on CNG and fill up at home would have saved me a bundle.

And I bet that with the ability to convert existing vehicles, you would see a lot of local companies spring up to meet this demand. China is the world's leader in making CNG motorcycles. And Zanella from Argentina is now building brand new CNG motorcycles. They also sell conversion kits for other makes, but not in the US because of the Clean Air Act.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfLryoLqoq4

If I had several million to start a company, I would make one specifically to convert and sell new vehicles (motorcycles, cars, ATV, etc) that work off of CNG. And try to put pressure on the politicians to change this law to allow such industries to prosper.

 

LNG needs to overcome the logistical problem of refueling availability, as noted by Mushroom, before it has a chance to get out of the starting blocks.

Maybe some sort of partnership with a local gas utility, providing 20 or so refueling points in an urban area, and a vehicle manufacturer. GM seems to be feeling it's oats these days, so it is a possibility.

It won't be too much different than the 100% electric cars. Both the 100% electric and a hypothetical LNG car would have limitations, pluses and minuses. If a city only has one LNG refueling station, than it will be a sure failure, some sort of convienent refueling is mandatory. If there are good cost savings associated with LNG, than some people will opt for it.

One cautionary note, I think a lot of the cost savings with LNG will come from the lack of road taxes paid on the fuel. The road taxes do pay for roads, repairs, bridges and snow plowing, so it is a valuable price additive.

 

We have a society which is 99% gas/oil propelled and 1% alternative energy propelled. From the perspective of the masses, based on costs and psychological change and lack of infrastructure, I don't see the ratio changing for many years to come...more like many decades.

We've had these options for many decades and after all this time we are still looking at the 99:1 ratio! There is nothing happening today to suggest this ratio will change.

IMO...the ONLY thing that will change our oil/gas dependency is the trauma associated with much higher oil/gas prices, shortages of oil/gas, outages of oil/gas, and it's inflationary effects on the economy. Short of these events, no matter all the options we have available to us today, we will follow our current path until the oil hits the fan...