Catholic flowchart shows its pretty complicated to get to heaven

Here is a flowchart that allegedly tracks the state of the soul according to the Catholic faith:



I once saw this at a Christian (Protestant) bookstore and I believe it is meant to be a criticism.

According to Martin Luther, faith alone saves, so none of this is necessary.

Believe in Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and you are "saved."

Discuss.

 

I don't think so--the footnote says RCIA--which is a Rite within the Church...and it's pretty accurate from what I can see. I don't get the flow they have listed for babies, but it seems to just address different choices people can make concerning cooperation with God's Graces.

 

Sola gratia, sola scriptura, sola fide, solus Christus ... to be honest: I don't love "sola"-statements ["only"-satements, "alone"-statements] because only love saves - and love is not alone. In the end maybe our romance saves us - or beauty saves us - or ... - who knows really? I'm quite sure the very old simple point of view "Do good deeds!" helps in the best of all thinkable ways. A good deed is like a heavenly smile. I'm very happy for example about the wave of helpfulness of our people here in case of the flood we have in the moment. It's like to live in heaven in a world where so many people try to help each other - although the situation is for many people very hard and desperating. Oh - also hope saves: Never give up before it's over - and it never will be over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRhpHZ85Ozk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0edb9O9wPOY

 

You're going straight to hell!

 

You got Luther wrong. It’s not faith that saves, but God’s grace as shown in Christ (Sola Gratia). There’s nothing you can do to ‘earn’ this grace, but faith is the way to accept it (Sola Fide). According to Luther if you have faith good deeds will follow as an expression of it.

 

Faith is something you do.

 

This is brilliant. I highly doubt that the average believer even thinks about everything written in the bible.

I find myself looking for "judgment day" though. According to the bible every soul is still waiting. Nobody is in hell or heaven till judgment day. Heaven and hell are supposed to be still empty ...

 

Huh. So weird. Only a nutter would ever think of something like that flow chart.

 

Not according to Luther. He thought we don’t have faith by our own merit, but that it is given to us. As such sola fide is part of sola gratia.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8 )

These days Lutherans and the Catholic Church share this understanding. From their "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification":

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

You still "do" faith. You do not have faith without works--I don't care what Luther said or how modern Lutherans massage the distinctions he made to fix his error (he tried to do that himself even within his own lifetime)--the Bible says different and repeatedly demonstrates different in the actions of the people represented in it. OF COURSE all good is from God--any good anyone does is from God, but YOU, the individual, must in your free will choices assent to cooperate with God in your good. That assent is OF YOU, allowed for BY GOD.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:14-26&version=NKJV

Now we all understand why Luther didn't like James. Excellent example of Pride, IMHO.

 

BTW, if you read further in that text you linked to, the distiction between Catholic & Lutheran views on the matter is discussed--culminating in the close...

[my emphasis]

Granted, it is a distinction with very little difference, but one is more Biblical, and one is rather emphasizing ONE verse rather than considering the Bible as a whole.

Catholic = We cooperate with God's gifts which is given to all -- all are called, some respond to the call
Lutheran = God's gifts are God's plan and so also is our cooperation -- only those who respond to God's call were called

The problem I see in that issue (Protestant perspective) is demonstrated clearly in the Calvinist-gone-wild idea called Predestination...

In general (IMO--and I'm making a huuuugely sweeping generalization and I know it), Protestantism takes truth and over-focuses on one aspect of the Truth of God in an attempt to control the meaning and eliminate the mystery of faith. It's that stereotypical Protestant dogmatism run amok. You see it in the TULIP of Calvinism, and in the sola-anything in Lutheranism. You can't put God in a box--he's GOD.

 

I don't expect you to care for what Luther said, I just wanted to clarify what it is that he said. Actually I don't even agree with all that he said myself. Well, I do agree that faith is a gift rather than something that we achieve on our own merit and if you don't like that, I'm sorry to have broken it to you that the Catholic Church agrees with that, too.

However, I note with sadness that you still have not embraced the ecumenical spirit and feel the need to point to what seperates our respective denominations in a scathing manner rather than to point to what unites them.

I'm not even sure whether I want to get more into this and your second post with all these irritating loud big letters. If so, I'll have to postpone it, because I've got other things at my hand for the rest of the day. Maybe until I get around to posting again you'll have calmed down - be it by your own merit or by God's grace .

 

. No...it's more like "no (*)(*)(*)(*), Catholics never were taught that it was our OWN merit...." Duh. It' Protestants that say that's what we think.

When you're wrong, you're just wrong....sorry 'bout that.

oh for heaven's sake.... I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss it, miss priss.

 

How do you call Auschwitz-Birkenau? ¿Earth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIIS-UgixGE

 

However, there is heaven here too.

 

Blackrook...why do you abandon good discussion in your own thread?

 

Not sure why you continually like to damage the RC name with your posts. Turning people off with your attitude turns them off to the message and the institution you're claiming to represent. You do the RCs a huge disservice.

- - - Updated - - -

And this could've been a good thread.
1st I've seen where christians actually discuss their respective religions and right out of the chute name calling starts.

 

... and watch-guards ...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3O-PLopk5g

 

It's ironic in a way that this thread would end up this way considering some of the arguments BR has been trying to make lately.

 

Your soul is your own to work out your salvation in fear and trembling, and I am not "Catholicism." Frankly I don't care if you like me, so you can stop telling me repeatedly how you don't like me. Okay...got it...no skin off my back. Why do you always have to make it personal? Stop being such a baby.

 

Why is it that atheists and non-Catholics get all touchy when there is any assertiveness at all from a Christian--particularly a Catholic Christian? Buck-up babies and put your big girl panties on.


(ah....and a sense of humor doesn't hurt either. )

 

I did not abandon this thread. But sometimes real life intervenes. I was away for the weekend at my sister's house in California. I will read the thread over and make comments if I think it necessary.

 

Damn it. I had already drawn up a nice post in my head, in which I’d give it one more try to get a polite and amicable chat about theology going. Seeing this post I suppose I can stuff that once again.

Actually this thread started with a Catholic’s misrepresentation of what Lutherans think (and sadly continued with further misrepresentations on your side).

My post explicitly pointed out that both Catholics and Lutherans think faith is a gift and that we’re not saved by our own merit, but by grace alone. From the link: “In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable“ i.e. are no longer seen as a dividing factor between our respective Churches. So what exactly is your problem with my post?

Is it possible that pride was less Luther’s problem than yours, and that you’re just pissed off because I put it to you that one of your statements concerning faith may not be in accordance with the “Joint Declarationon the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church” ?

I’d be ready to agree that I’m wrong, but I don’t quite see where yet. All I stated is that according to Luther and the abovementioned shared declaration with the Catholic Church, faith is nothing you do, it’s a gift that you get given and that enables and calls you to do good. Isn't that so? You may of course disagree with what our Churches declare, but that's what they declare.

Thank you, but I can still read small letters without wearing glasses. Typing in big letters is widely considered as shouting in the internet and deemed to be impolite. The suspicion that being impolite is exactly what you intended is not only supported by the form but also by the content of your posts.
It’s kind of funny that you call me “miss priss” for pointing that out, when you yourself start acting like the “Princess on the Pea” as soon as the slightest criticism of your views and/or the Catholic Church is voiced (or perceived by you as being voiced).

Personally I can enjoy a bit of good old clichéd theological banter, but it’s no fun with somebody who can punch, but can’t take being punched back. Also in this case I’d be one of the worst sparring-partners ever: Ironically when it comes to Luther’s theology I’m probably opposed to it in more points than a traditional Catholic would be. I strongly suspect that some of his views regarding original sin, the nature of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross etc. might be further down your alley than mine.

 

cuz you make every post you do personal. You have to call everyone some name to put anyone down who won't think like you.

 

many Christians no longer believe this, they prefer to believe their loved ones are looking down on them from Heaven