Climate Change 2022: Mitigation of Climate Change

Rank Innumeracy On The Cost Of Electricity From Renewables
February 21, 2023/ Francis Menton

• 
  A recurring theme here at Manhattan Contrarian is that the “smart” people who seek to run the world are not really very smart.
  
  
• They may have gotten high scores on the SATs, and they may have attended fancy universities, but when it comes to practical knowledge of how the world works they are often complete idiots.
  
  
• A special case of this phenomenon is that the highest gurus of high finance — the people who are most trusted to have mastered basic numeracy, and who get to pass out trillions of dollars of public funds — are completely innumerate.
  
  
• As obvious as the conclusion of increasing electricity prices may be, our government, represented by EPA and the Justice Department, either claims, or pretends, not to recognize that conclusion. Could seemingly smart people really be so dense?
  

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Calling people stupid is a seriously bad form of argument.

In fact, it's a far stronger statement against those making such arguments.

 

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't think the word "stupid" appears anywhere except in your post. But "innumerate" -- now there's a good word used appropriately in my link.

 

An Australian fantasy meets reality.
SMH: Aussie Hydrogen Export Plans At Risk from US Hydrogen Development
Eric Worrall
Who could have guessed than an absurdly expensive and suicidally dangerous green vanity fuel would falter in the face of other vanity fuel projects? . . .

 

I don't understand why anyone would think that the future is going to work out for cars that are designed for hydrogen.

Perhaps it's a nice thought, but it's expensive, dangerous, and difficult to deliver.

We have an entire network for electricity and fossil fuel. Popping up a fueling station is especially cheap and easy for electricity.

 

Serious issues for serious people.

Climate Uncertainty & Risk: the presentation
Posted on February 24, 2023 by curryja | 15 comments
by Judith Curry

A 20 minute presentation on Climate & Uncertainty and Risk (including some content from my forthcoming book)

Continue reading →

 

But an 80/20 mix of natural gas and hydrogen is doable. Or a switch to natural gas ICE. Or a nat gas, nat gas hydrogen, or gasoline engine. Just flick a switch. Or a nat gas hydrogen electric vehicle. Charge while driving.

 

You have to make enough money to pay for overhead. It would make electricity for vehicles expensive..

 

Hydrogen is expensive energy and has no means of delivery outside of an area in San Francisco and an area in Los Angeles, and those sites are known for running out, leaving people with no fuel. We can postulate cheap hydrogen and assured delivery, but no solution to that has been found.

ICE requires both engines and automatic, geared transmissions that are miserably inefficient, regardless of what fuel is used.

Burning fossil fuel in our cities is a known significant health problem in America.

Electricity has a nation wide and safe delivery system, with EVs being cheaper to fuel on the basis of cost per mile.

 

Remember that charging stations do not have any attendants - they are fully operable by the driver.

Tesla is designing some today where there is a store (somewhat like the K-Mart concept) that has many stalls for charging, all covered by significant solar, connected to major battery storage.

Cost per mile for EVs is measured today - not by some future assumption.

 

The owner of the charging stations is going to get his cut. If not? No charging stations. I could set up an ice with propane tanks exchanged at Wal-Mart. Maybe not legal but doable. A different tank setup and legal and doable.

 

So, you're saying these stations are just going to sit out in the middle of nowhere with no human monitoring them/dealing with problems?

 

That is part of the cost of electricity today. It's not some extra.

And, if some site raises the price of electricity, that's no different that some gas station raising the price of gas.

There are ICE vehicles set up for propane, but it's a silly way to go for every way that exists. It's less efficient. It costs more per mile. It goes less far on a tank. It's clearly less safe if anything like the usual propane tanks are used in your exchange idea.

There have been pallet movers that use propane in shipping transfer stations, as their exhaust isn't as bad as gas, but those are being replaced by electric movers.

 

No, I absolutely did NOT say that.

What the HECK gave you that idea?

Please comment on what I say, not what you dream up.

 

Didn't you say the stations would have no attendants?

 

They already do that. We've got about 8 Tesla chargers (no attendants) down behind what used to be a Denny's and is now a local diner. We've been here for about 8 years. I've seen about 8 cars charging there to date. That's got to be a heck of a profitable system.

 

Charging stations today have no attendants.

Today, there are parking lots for shopping centers that have charging stations and no attendants. People can plug in and go shopping. There are other similar combinations where the charging stations have no attendants. Maybe its just a city parking lot and you can do your city business. After all, there is nothing for an attendant to do. You can also charge at home.

I think Tesla's idea is that there will be remote locations where people want to charge and would also buy stuff at a store somewhat like the K-Mart model, but it is the store that would have an employee, and they aren't there to be an attendant to the charging, as that is all all 100% automatic. As I understand it, a Tesla could bill you for a charge without a credit card or anything. The car knows who the car belongs to.

Plus, EVs often come with a bunch of electricity credit. So for a while, there isn't even anything to pay for. The car keeps records.

 

You're totally missing the point. charging stations in shopping centers aren't the same as charging stations in the middle of Wyoming or Montana.

Sure. What could possibly go wrong in the middle of nowhere.

Whoop-de-doo.

 

I think Tesla sees the opportunity for doubling up with selling super cheap solar energy at a profit and K-Market style products that people like when they travel.

I think Wyoming and Montana have relatively modern and dependable electricity grids.

And, I think an attendant could do no more than make a phone call to report that someone ran over the charging equipment, or whatever.

 

A little off topic, but I forget. Which state was it that refused Biden's bribe money to build EV infrastructure because they've got something like a whopping 200 EVs in the entire state? Was that Wyoming or Montana (or someone else)?

 

Yeah, sorry, I don't recall, either.

 

No telling what Musk will think of next.

and hundreds of miles of nothing in between.

LOL, where do you live?

 

He's said California before. Explains a lot.

 

Another blow against the empire.
Challenging Net Zero with Science: Lindzen-Happer-CO2 Coalition Paper Released
Charles Rotter
Net Zero Plans Are Dangerous and Unsupported by Science and the Scientific Method . . .

 

Brings the old Dire Straits song to mind- "Money for Nothing".